The ongoing Greek-Macedonian dispute has spilled over to affect Icelanders…in Washington DC and Norway.
The issue came up when Hjalmar Hannesson, Iceland’s ambassador to the USA decided to screen the new film by Norway-based Icelander Sigurjon Einarsson.
Einarsson’s film is called ‘A Name is a Name’ and is set in Macedonia and explores the country’s relationship with Greece, which claims the name Macedonia is already in use by a region in Greece and cannot therefore be used by the nation of Macedonia. This seemingly minor issue has soured relations between Skopje and Athens since Macedonian independence in 1991 and has even stalled Macedonian intentions to join the EU and other organisations.
Macedonian sources claim that Athens threatened to hinder Iceland’s own EU application procedure if Hannesson decided to show the movie. The proposed date of the private screening and whether or not Hannesson has chosen to go ahead are not yet known.
From MINA, the Macedonian International News Agency:
“On October 21, Icelandic Ambassador to the United States, Mr. Hjalmar Hannesson, invited a select group of invitees to his Washington, DC residence for a screening of a film by Icelandic filmmaker Sigurjon Einarsson.
“Upon hearing of this, Greece’s foreign ministry via its Embassy in DC had sent a communique to Iceland’s US Ambassador not to showcase the movie, hinting Athens could made life difficult for Reykyavik’s application for EU membership.
““A Name is a Name” movie was being shown as a part in spreading Icelandic made culture in the US. This may be the first time a foreign Ambassador is told what movie he can’t show at his private residence by a foreign country. Pesky Athenians.”
Message from IceNews:
Thanks for your interest in this story and for reading IceNews. We hope you will continue to visit.
I have decided to close the comment board on this particular article because the number of new comments appears to be increasing by the hour and not diminishing slowly as is usual for other stories. This would be absolutely fine if I felt the conversation was moving along – but I am seeing a lot of repetition here.
After spending quite a few hours reading and vetting the comments and removing the most offensive ones, I feel posting a personal opinion is not entirely inappropriate. I also hope nobody minds that I have the last word.
The last word is simply this: after 18 years, it is too late to say the Republic of Macedonia cannot have its name and Greece should accept that. But the Republic of Macedonia should not expect Greece to give it an easy ride as long as Macedonian ‘news’ websites remain so venomously anti-Greece.
Like it or not, there is more to unite the two countries than to separate them. If Europe’s future is a united one, these two countries need to work on learning to understand and appreciate each other right away.
This endless fight and ill-feeling will continue forever if you allow it to.
Thanks again for your interest in IceNews and I sincerely hope nobody takes offence at this personal opinion which is intended to take both sides into account.
Alex, editor
To all people debating on here and everywhere else who are still referring to us as FYROM:
We urge you all again:
DON’T YOU F.Y.R.O.M ME!
“As of August 2009, up to 127 countries recognise the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name.”
United States of America (NATO and G8 member)
United Kingdom (EU, NATO and G8 member)
People’s Republic of China
Russia (G8 member)
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Croatia (NATO member)
Kosovo
Montenegro
Serbia
Slovenia
Albania (NATO member)
Bulgaria (EU and NATO member)
Andorra
Argentina
Austria (EU member)
Azerbaijan
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Belarus
Botswana
Brazil
Burundi
Cambodia
Canada (NATO and G8 member)
Chad
Chile
Costa Rica
Cuba
Czech Republic (EU and NATO member)
Djibouti
East Timor
El Salvador
Estonia (EU and NATO member)
Guatemala
Guinea
Haiti
Honduras
Hungary (EU and NATO member)
India
Iran
Iraq
Ireland (EU member)
Israel
Jamaica
Kuwait
Laos
Lithuania (EU and NATO member)
Malaysia
Mauritius
Moldova
Morocco
Mozambique
Myanmar (Burma)
Nepal
Nicaragua
North Korea
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Poland (EU and NATO member)
Paraguay
Qatar
Romania (EU and NATO member)
Rwanda
Saudi Arabia
Seychelles
Singapore
Slovakia (EU and NATO member)
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Suriname
Swaziland
Sweden (EU member)
Tanzania
Tajikistan
Thailand
Turkey (NATO member)
Turkmenistan
Uganda
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
Vietnam
Thank you to the above countries who respect our human rights and history.
>FOR EXAMPLE I AM FROM LUGANO, WELL, I AM TICCINESSE AND AT THE SAME TIME SWISS…
SOME PEOPLE NEED TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL AND TAKE SOME LESSONS OF GEOGRAPHY.
And some people should go back to school and take some lessons of italian, since they are “TICCINESSE”..ahahaahah
Not bad for someone that claims to be fluent in 6 lenguages and give lectures of every subject to everyone!
Just caught something that will hopefully show better its not Greeks that are “denying” FYROM’s identity. It’s FYROM nationalists that are denying FYROM’s identity. (which is mostly Bulgarian and a sprinkling of Serbs)
LudaMara states…
“while we became “slavs” (which is purely linguistic term invented by the western ignorant scholars”
This implicitly suggests that LudaMara doesn’t see him/herself as Slavic? (I.e. denying his/her own Slavic heritage)
———-
Blonides writes
“and to be a slav only means that you are speaking a type of language and not your genes:
Implicitely suggesting Blonides doesn’t see herself of Slavic either (I.e. denying his/her own Slavic heritage)
———-
Val writes:
I AM MACEDONIAN, & I’m of slav origin and proud of it.
Implicitly suggesting Vals see’s him/herself as Slavic. (but “Macedonian” in an ancient or modern context)
———-
Pasko Kuzman )the current head of FYROM government’s archeology/cultural department) states…
“Macedonia can only defend its name, if it proves that the Macedonian nation has Classical Antique and not Slavic roots,”
Suggesting Pasko doesn’t see himself as Slavic and he’s a pure ancient Macedonian.
http://fellowship.birn.eu.com/en/main/alumni_articles/23131/
———-
Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President, stated
“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4
This suggests he is not ancient Macedonian and Macedonian only in the Slavic sense.
———-
Krste Misirkov, a FYROM national icon, wrote in ‘On Macedonian Matters
“We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called BULGARIANS?”
This suggests he see’s himself as an ethnic Bulgarian trying to form a “new” Macedonian state (no suggested connection to ancient Macedonians)
———-
Former FYROM Foreign Minister Denko Maleski stated…
“The idea that Alexander the Great belongs to us was at the mind of some outsider groups only. These groups were insignificant in the first years of our independence. But the big problem is that the old Balkan nations have been learned to legitimize themselves through their history. In the Balkans to be recognized as a nation you need to have history of 2,000 to 3,000 years old. Since you (Greece ) forced us to invent a history, we did invent it.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlDLmufGHqQ&feature=related
This implies nothing about his identity but states outright their government is intentionally committing fraud.
———-
Gyordan Veselinov FYROM’s former ambassador to Canada writes “We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.:
This suggests he acknowledges Greeks and himself as Slavic (the most cogent reply because FYROM are mostly a mix of former self-identifying Serbs and Bulgarians)
———-
Slobodan Ugrinovski, a FYROM politician stated on A1 TV, FYROM May 04 2009….
“We are not stating by accident that Josip Broz Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia, a father and a mother for Macedonia. Because we have, in that time, after NOB, for the first time created a Macedonian alphabet, a Macedonian television, a Macedonian state, a language, a passport, an identity card, a university for the first time, a Macedonian academy for the first time. We, communists, have created the Macedonian Orthodox church.”
This suggests he DOESN”T see himself as “Macedonian” (sees it as an artificially constructed identity)
———-
Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM stated…
“To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ”
http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI
Suggesting he knows the FYROM nationalists are extremely confused and that they need to form a distinct different identity. (which would be my advice to end this insanity before it escalates in war)
———-
I have to wonder if Mr.Einarsson’s film covered these sorts of massively conflicting identity narratives before he decided to seemingly crucify Greeks as oppressors? My guess is not.
It seems to be a pattern lately among people that claim to support FYROM’s “human right to self-identification” yet those same people seemingly show little or no interest whatsoever to make sure Greece’s human rights are also protected while FYROM works out its problems.
Dear Sirs,
The source where the FYROMacedonia story comes from is actually a source in Iceland, according to one of the FYROMacedonian news channels that covered the story: the Icelandic newspaper “MBL”.
The Iceland Ambassador to the US said that it was their decision to not show the film, when they realised the content. The Embassy staff thought Einarson planned to promote through the film the Icelandic culture but when they watched the film they understood it had nothing to do with Iceland – besides it was clear that someone was trying to push FYROM’s political agenda. Thus they decided NOT to permit showing the film. FYROMacedonians in order to cover their failure, made up a story involving Greek diplomats. This claim, like much else coming out of FYROM, is just another fairy tale.
Atanas said:
“the DNA analisis tell everything “dear greeks”.
the genetic is AN EXACT SCIENCE and they can PRECISELY tell you where you originate from.
why don’t you “pure greeks” that polute the net go and check your DNA. i dare you!”
I keep hearing the same gibberish “pure” negative stereotype of this thread (also repeated ad infinium by FYROM nationalists in the mass media).
Atanas are you so consumed by your hatred of Greeks that you sincerely believe that the vast majority of Greeks don’t realize they’ve had genetic outputs from other groups over the last 2500 years? So you go around trying to imply to ethnic Jews they aren’t ethnic Jews any longer because they mixed far far more than Greeks? (seeing as they were mostly nomadic right?)
But let me play with your sick attempt to undermine Greek ethnicity on DNA grounds. It is my understanding (although I’m not a geneticist to claim I understand the results) virtually all DNA studies conducted on modern Greek DNA (compared to ancient Greeks) seems to suggest a significant portion of the Greeks indeed genetically related to ancient Greek populations (see Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, and Alberto Piazza.). About the only exception being one highly controversial study that FYROM nationalists repeatedly claim prove Greeks are related to Ethiopians. (with has been widely discredited by 3rd party geneticists because it only used one genetic marker…but that didn’t seem to stop FYROM from putting it in their Manu encyclopedia)
AD Smith Professor Emeritus of Nationalism and Ethnicity at the London School of Economics has studied Greek culture and genetics extensively. He seems convinced of Greeks relationship to ancient Greeks. He writes in his book “National Identity”…
“the challenge for scholars is to represent more accurately and convincingly the relationship of ethnic, cultural (Greek) past to modern (Greek) nation
e challenge for scholars is to represent more accurately and convincingly the relationship of ethnic, cultural (Greek) past to modern (Greek) nation”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_D._Smith
That said, Mr. Smith is looking at other things too because using DNA alone to prove the status of one’s ethnicity over 2500 years is an immensely flawed argument. DNA says nothing about one’s culture, language, and identity. In addition just because someone may or may not personally share a few strands of DNA with a few ancient Greek cadavers-what does that prove?
My strands were probably far closer to Ephialtes rather that a far rarer genius Aristotle. Or maybe most of my DNA is Slavic because one person in my linage married someone Bulgarian. Or perhaps the opposite is true, and my DNA has strong Turkish elements and I just happen to have had one ancestor that was ancient Greek (among literally thousands of ancestors seeing as it’s 2^100 generations which means everyone’s married plenty distant cousins)
If anything its FYROM that has been wildly abusing DNA as some sort of “proof” that the Greek ethnic identity doesn’t exist simply because Greeks (like everyone else on earth) have received genetic inputs from elsewhere too. Using such an absurd extreme standard of ethnicity as “purity” would implicitly mean no ethnic groups on earth exists (or have ever existed).
Thus this childish “purity” argument is essentially a carefully crafted statement intended solely to ridicule Greeks. It is effectively meaningless in substance. Diana Muir & Paul S. Appelbaum write in the Gene Wars about FYROM’s approach to DNA….
“.. we can now turn to the use-or misuse-of genetic findings in the battle of territorial claims. The Macedonians, the Sami of northern Scandinavia, and Palestinians are three groups that have seized upon deeply problematic interpretations of new genetic evidence to bolster claims to sovereignty.[..] Most of today’s Macedonians are in fact citizens of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, carved out of the remains of Yugoslavia in 1991[..}They speak a Slavic language, part of a family of tongues brought to the Balkans by Slavic tribes in the sixth and seventh centuries, and first began to develop a unique national identity at the turn of the twentieth century. Nonetheless, [..] some of these citizens believe that they are in fact the descendants of Alexander the Great of Macedon, and as such “are not Slavs, but have a direct descent from the ancient Macedonians. ” (Diana Muir & Paul S. Appelbaum: The Gene Wars)
http://www.spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=1726
Niels, this is the exact sort of hateful abusive harassment Greeks have to deal with non-stop by hundreds of thousands of FYROM nationals (because they wish Greeks to abdicate their ethnic identity so that the former Bulgarians of FYROM can become the one true “ancient Macedonians”)
Some seem to believe the current name dispute is the dirty ignorant Greeks fault. The persecuted gets labeled the persecutor. How I know that they are full of horse manure is because of two factors.
a. Seeing as ancient Macedonians were self-identifying Greeks… are they saying FYROM nationalists are the “true” ancient Greeks now? (bizzarely erasing Greek-speakers from being Greeks and replacing them with former self-identifying Bulgarians that speak a south Slavic dialect?)
b. Why does everyone keep talking about protecting FYROM’s ethnic identity as if Greeks don’t exist? Don’t the human rights of Greeks count too? Doesn’t the Greek ethnic identity count too?
c. Why have so many people seemingly developed selective amnesia about what FYROM government officials (and national icons) used to claim not so long ago about their very own ethnicity.
‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov – Interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)
‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
(FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives iin Washington, – January 22 1999)
“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President – Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4
‘I have received all letters which were sent by or through you. May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when WE OURSELVES ARE BULGARIANS…’
(Gotse Delchev, IMRO leader, in letter to Nikola Maleshevski – Sofia, 1 May 1899,)
“We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called BULGARIANS?
http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm
Jewish people get a disproportionate amount of flack for having a disproportionate amount of money. But when it comes to matters of history, it is Greeks that get constantly harassed by ethnically insecure SOBs that are obsessed with proving Greeks aren’t related to ancient Greeks (the Aryans claimed to be the “true” Greeks too at one point). FYROM claims we deny their identity because we won’t recognize the name. From my end it is they that deny ours in everything but name.
Everyone is ancient Greek… except the people that actually speak Greece, live in Greece, share DNA with ancient Greeks, cherish ancient Greeks, give Greek names to their cities and children. When doing so it is called disdainfully “hellenisation” or some sort of “cult”… as if cherishing Greek culture is some sort of horrible crime. Do people say this when someone treasures American culture, Icelandic, French, German, Japanese, Chinese, Korea, South African?
Ana mentioned hurtful but she doesn’t know hurt.
@ SIR EURO
ok, what ever mate. i know where your coming from but macedonia is not a city or a region, its a country. And if 2 million people in this country, and millions more around the world feel like they are Macedonian, what gives the athenians the right to say no you are not???!!! or say you are bulgarian and so is your language. so what your saying is we do not want to be what we really are so we apparently are stealing a so called greek name, and are speaking a bulgarian language in order to conspire into stealing greek land. do u even understand when a macedonian or a bulgarian is speaking to you????. haha hilarious. when northern greece changed its name to macedonia and thrace i think in 1989, we didnt care, we didnt say oh no grece is planning on taking our land, we should be the ones that are worried about it, your a country of 10 or 11 million. maybe greece has territorial claims on rep. of macedonia. so it works vice versa. why is greece so paranoid! what do they have to hide? they went about this in the most stupid of ways! and soon the world will see how scared they are of a tiny balkans nation. ive been in greek churches were there a banners placed inside sayin “Macedonia is 3000 years Greece” LMAO. this is a place of worship for othordox believers no matter where u a from! a place where people go to pray and feel loved, its not a place for politics, because if macedonia is greece, why would you need to keep reminding your very own people they should already know this. anyways there is no need for this, ill just answer to any1 that isnt from athens if they would like to ask some questions about macedonia feel free. take care
Greeks fall over themselves with glee when it comes to Macedonia’s so called “territorial aspirations ” toward “Greece’s northern province of the same name”. Yet, Macedonia has already renounced all “territorial aspirations” toward its larger and more powerful neighbour, “greece”, with the signing of the Interim Accord in ’95. So, just how will Macedonia gain Aegean Macedonia with its army of 8,000, against greece’s 240,000 plus? Let a Greek explain?
Is not Greece a member of NATO, EU etc. How will Macedonia invade and take “the GReek province of the same name” with its small insignificant army? Furthermore, will not Macedonian “irredentism” be held further in check if Macedonia is in Nato/EU? Just more of the unthought-out madness inherent in the GReek arguments!
Greeks have one argument, the argument of force, no other!!! All of their bandying of fyrom/slav this/that is over regurgiated swill, fed to them by their Greek nationalist govt. In a country where creative and personal freedom is DEAD, one need only to look at the Govt.s oppressive and fear based policies, the classic same of any occupier/overlord whose decrees are now LAW in their newly acquired lands!
THE POST OF IGENEA IS A TOTAL FALACY. THE PARAMETERS ARE NOT VALID IN THE WAY THEY ARE POSTED ABOVE.
TO START WITH. THERE IS NOT AN ETHNICAL GROUP YOU CAN CALL MACEDONIANS. AND THEN TRY TO APPLY YOU HAVE FOUND DIFFERENT DNA TRACES OF THAT GROUP IN DIFFERENT EUROPEAN COUNTRIES. YOU HAVE TOTALLY FORGOTTEN ARAB, PERSIAN AND ASIAN DNA IN BULGARIA. FOR THAT ONLY I SUPOSE THE CONSTRUCT YOU POST ON THIS PAGE IS A TOTAL FALACY. IT IS JUST NOT SCIENTIFICALLY SUSTAINABLE IN THE WAY IT IS EXPLAINED.
DNA SIMILARITIES DO NOT CONFORM NATIONALITIES OR CULTURAL HOMOGENIC HUMAN GROUPS. CULTURAL GROUPS AND NATIONS ARE CONFORMED BY A COMMON CULTURAL BACKGROUND, SPECIALLY BY THE USE OF A LANGUAGE.
THE PROBLEM POSTED HERE CANNOT BE ANSWERED FROM THE GENETIC POINT OF VIEW. BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A “NAME” LINKED TO A CULTURE AND NATIONALITY.
WE ARE NOT MAKING CLAIMS ON DEGREE OF PERCENTS OF PURITY IN SLAVIC OR NOT SLAVC. WE SEE THAT FYROM IS A CULTURAL UNITY THAT, FOR INSTANCE, IT IS GENERALLY AND OVERHEMLY SLAVIC.
THAT SOME DNA TRACES ARE TO BE FOUND IN BULGARIA, OR OTHER COUNTRIES DOES ONLY JUSTIFY THE PRESENCE OF GREEK POPULATION ( COLONIES ) IN THOSE AREAS YOU ARE MEANTIONING. COASTAL AREAS IN THE BLACK SEA, AND ALL ALONG THE MEDITERRANEAN. SAME “GREEK” DNA TRACES ARE TO BE FOUND ALL AROUND THE MEDITERRANEAN AND EVEN IN IN AFGHANISTAN AND INDIA.
THEY SAY THAT 20% OF FYRONIANS SHARE SOME COMON DNA WITH 18% GREEK MACEDONIANS. BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE FYRONIANS MACEDONIANS AND NOT THE GREEK TO BE FYRONIANS. SPANISH SHARE 35% OF COMMON DNA WITH 45% OF FRENCH POPULATION AND 20% WITH 30% OF ENGLISH POPULATION AND AND, SURPRINSINGLY 40% WITH 60% OF IRISH. ( THE CELTIC LEGACY)…
BUT I THINK IT IS OBVIOUS THAT SPAIN IS NOT THE RIGHT NOW TO CALL MADRID LIKE PARIS AND THAT SOUTH ENGLAND SHOULD BE NAMED NEW BARCELONA. SO LETS PUT THINGS IN ITS RIGHT PATH HERE WITH ALL THE STUFF OF THE DNA.. BECAUSE IT HAPPENS THAT WE SHARE 60% OF OUR DNA WITH CHINESE….
BUT I HAVE NEVER BEEN TO PEKIN.. WELL, MAYBE I SHOULD BE GRANTED CHINESE CITIZENSHIP FOR THAT…
THERE ARE DNA CHARACTERÍSITICS THAT ARE SHARED BY DIFFERENT HUMAN GROUPS. FOR EXAMPLE, DNA SO CALLED “BEREBER” TRACES WHERE FOUND IN 30% OF ENGLISH POPULATION. AND NOW YOU ARE GOING TO TELL ME THAT 30% OF ENLGLISH POPULATION ARE TOUAREG FROM THE SAHARA DESERT.
THERE ARE COMMON TRACES THAT PEOPLE SHARE AROUND THE WORLD. AND OTHER DNA CHARACTERÍSTICS ARE MORE COMMON OF DIFFERENT BETWEEN HUMAN GROUPS.
AS MAKEDONIANS FROM THE BEGINNING HAVE BEEN GREEK ( A GREEK ANCIENT TRIBE), THAT MIXED WITH THE OTHER GREEK TRIBES AND SPREADED GREEK CULTURE AROUND THE WORLD.
@Jim2, trying to discredit the Macedonian ethnicity/nationality is a useless pastime!We are here and we exist! Nothing we do/present is accepted by Greeks anyway, though no one else has a problem!
1. Why not try and prove, instead, that today’s “greek” identity is little more than a Turkish/Albanian/Vlach hybrid?
2.You may like to disprove that “greeks”, are adept at only one thing; MISREPRESENTATION of historic sources; ie in more recent times, Greek speakers/adherents to the Greek church (even those unwillingly so) are all represented as “greeks”! It’s also a socio/economic identifier, ie “greeks were merchants, in the same way that “Bulgarians” are uneducated, lowly labourers etc etc.
3. Tell us then how “Greeks” and Bugars came to be Ethnically clean states? When they are generic terms, in fact and do not refer to ethnic groups??
The only thing that I can say is that let’s just respect each other, let’s understand each other, let’s give PEACE, a chance.
Chances are most comments here come from an organised Skopjan effort to spread propaganda in Icelandic media. Links to this article are now in every major Skopjan forum with calls for help.
Nothing of this sort of threats against Iceland ever came from Greece. Skopjans, as usual, spread lies and try to defame Greece.
It all starts from Josip Broz Tito, who mixed ancient Greek and recent Bulgarian history and also mixed Bulgarian and Serbian languages and created an artificial nation named “Macedonia” (a name stolen from Greece). This would be comical if it wasn’t dangerous.
@Daniel
“So began the “Hellenizing of Macedonia with all Macedonian toponyms, even personal names, any existing evidence of MACEDONIAN CULTURE wiped to be replaced with the “clean” Greek sounding ones!”
The same is true of America… or do you imagine it still has all the original Indian names? How about Australia? Canada? Turkey? Israel? etc…etc… You think FYROM’s names were originally Slavic champ? So why are you picking on Greeks for something that happened a hundred years ago?
The other factor you of course neglect to mention is that Greeks were changing the names BACK to original Greek names. Let’s not forget the Turks erased them when the wiped out Constantinople (today Istanbul).
Seeing as FYROM today claim that people that have been speaking Greek in an unbroken chain in the region for 3000 years have nothing to do with ancient Greeks…. but slavic speaking FYROM nationalists are the true direct descendants of ancient Macedonians (who self-identified as Greeks therefore you are the “true” Greeks as well now it seems)
… one would think FYROM would appreciate the Greek names ancient Macedonians gave to their cities Or are you saying they would have preferred to label their cities using Slavic toponyms?
Seems to me FYROM really need to figure out their identity there Daniel. (beyond demonizing Greeks).
SORRY JIM2 I HAVE A SEVERE FORM OF DYSLEXIA, IF YOU WHAT IT IS.”
Sorry to hear that but see if you can manage to press the “caps lock” key. :)
IMO you are shooting your own cause in the foot if you make things difficult for others to read. It’s important to be as articulate as possible. (English does have some syntax rules that are rather inconsistent which sometimes can confuse me too)
@Daniel
You are provided a historical narrative completely devoid of evidence. “Macedonian” to FYROM’s great grandfathers meant Macedonian in a Bulgarian-only sense. Don’t believe me?
Dimitar and Konstantine Miladinov were Bulgarian folk writers that self-identified as Bulgarians in their works. Dimitar translated Bible texts into what at the time was still considered Bulgarian (what was revised and renamed into a formal language of “Macedonian” in 1944 by Yugoslav communists). In a letter to “Tsarigradski Vestnik” of February 28, 1860, he wrote “…In the entire country of Ohrid, there is not a single Greek family, except three or four villages of Vlahs. All of the rest of the population is pure Bulgarian.” They wrote a book called “Buglarian Folk Songs”… which the FYROM government has cut out the original title cover to only say “folk songs”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miladinov_Brothers#Controversy
Boris Petrov Sarafov went to the Bulgarian Men’s High School. He attended a military academy in Sophia Bulgaria and later was a Bulgarian Army Officer. He was also a member of IMRO. In his memoirs wrote all Slav-Macedonians are Bulgarians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Sarafov
Dame Gruev went to the Bulgarian Men’s High School. He attended university at the University of Sofia in Bulgaria. Worked as a Bulgarian school teacher. He co-authored the statues of the Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Committee which was an organization exclusively for Bulgarians. During the Illinden uprising he requested Bulgarian government help for Buglarians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Letter_No._534_from_the_General_Staff_of_the_Second_Macedonian-Adrianople_Revolutionary_Region.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dame_Gruev
Ivan Mihailov the head of IMRO went to the Bulgarian Men’s High School . He enlisted in the Bulgarian army later emigrating to Sofia Bulgaria. He participated in a terrorist campaign that included 63 attacks including murdering 1000s of Serbian officials (including the King of Yugoslavia). In 1943 he collaborated with the Nazis. After visited Hitler, Himmler, and the Sicherheitsdienst in Germany he subsequently received weapons and munitions from the SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mihailov
Boris Petrov Sarafov went to the Bulgarian Men’s High School. He attended a military academy in Sophia Bulgaria and later was a Bulgarian Army Officer. He was also a member of IMRO. In his memoirs wrote all Slav-Macedonians are Bulgarians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Sarafov
(Excerpt from the statute of BMARC, predecessor of IMRO, 1896. Written originally in what was considered Bulgarian co-authored by Gotse Delchev)
Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the BULGARIAN POPULATION in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.
Chapter II. – Structure and Organization
Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any BULGARIAN, independent of gender
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization
etc… etc… (I could write volumes)
My personal favorite though is FYROM national icon Krste Misirkov who summed it up the best.
“We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called BULGARIANS?
“Who is against a greater Bulgaria is against Slavism”
“Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians”
(Krste Misirkov, FYROM national icon, in ‘On Macedonian Matters’)
http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm
http://mak-truth.com/k_conf.htm
Even the former Prime Minister of FYROM is on record admitting their current government if spreading historical falsehoods.
‘Why are we ashamed and flee from the truth that whole positive Macedonian revolutionary tradition comes exactly from exarchist part of Macedonian people? We shall not say a new truth if we mention the fact that everyone, Gotse Delchev, Dame Gruev, Gjorche Petrov, Pere Toshev – must I list and count all of them – were teachers of the Bulgarian Exarchate in Macedonia.’ (former Prime Minister and Vice President of FYROM, Ljubco Georgievski, 2007, in his book ‘Facing the truth’)
http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUf0s5NORDc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI
DANIEL, ” So began the “Hellenizing of Macedonia with all Macedonian toponyms, even personal names, any existing evidence of MACEDONIAN CULTURE ”
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HELLENISIZE SOMETHING THAT BY INSTANCE IS HELLENIC. MAKEDONIA IS A GREEK WORD, COMING FROM “MAKEDON”, NOT A SLAVIC WORD.
THESSALONIKA, TO START WITH A VERY IMPORTANT TOPONYM, IS A GREEK CITY THAT HAS BEEN THERE FOR MORE THAN 3000 YEARS. 2500 YEARS WAY MUCH BEFORE SLAVS CAME CAME AROUND STEALING LAND AND ROBING NAMES..
@LudaMara
“first the “greeks” were paranoic and saying that there is no such thing as Macedonians and Macedonia. ”
FYROM Word games. I agree there is such a thing as Macedonians in Macedonia. There are 2.5 million of them (plus the millions of Greeks that see ancient Macedonians as their mutual ancestors along with other Greeks) There also a million or so FYROM nationalists in FYROM. There are also small number of each group in each respect nation.
See. I can do that to you too LudaMara.
Now how about your recognize our Macedonians? Or does that interfere with your historical narrative of being the one true direct descendants of ancient Macedonians that treasure their “ancient” culture… yet who clearly speak Slavic, claim ancient Macedonian didn’t self-identity as Greeks, only ten years ago figured our you represent an unbroken chain to ancient Macedonians, and for the past 1000 years saw yourselves as Slavs.
‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’ (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington, – January 22 1999)
“now those same “greeks” who,as a matter of fact for most of them, came 80 years ago from Asia Minor call themselves “macedonian greek-btw wtf is that!?!”
The existence of Greeks in Macedonia is recorded before that time (even in Slavic sources but I don’t suppose you care to quote them). Perhaps you should look at some census data? (and while your at it please feel free to point out the line that shows “ethnic Macedonians”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistical_data
What I find fascinating about your reply is your use of “Greeks” in quotes. Are you denying Greeks their ethnic identity?
That would suggest to me that for your new ethnic identity depends entirely on trying to erase the existing one of Greeks. I thought ancient Macedonians weren’t Greeks and the right to self-identification is an absolute. Quite a contradiction there LudaMara.
“did you know that in TODAYS EU greece-”the cradle of democracy”
Athens is indeed the birthplace of democracy. Its unfortunate you see that in a negative light. Instead of trying to bring life to Athens to remember all the wonder things ancient Greeks provided to the world… you are seemingly trying to destroy it.
“there is no such thing as minority!!!!YES SIR,greece HAS NO MINORITIES!
Don’t be absurd. Just because Greece doesn’t track minorities does mean someone non-Greek can’t indulge in an alternate culture (neither does France and a whack of other nations incidentally… but you don’t seem to frame it that way for those other countries) The main caveat is if the purpose of their indulgence isn’t simply to stake future land claims. (see FYROM nationalists living in Greece)
“THEY ARE ALL PURE!!”
More negative stereotypes.
Do you talk in this hateful manner about Jews? Are they “pure”(whatever that’s supposed to mean). Do they live exactly like they did 3000 years ago? Did a 17th century Jew know exactly the events in Israel in 1000 BC… or did many relearn them in the 20th century? How about Hebrew. Was it in use for the last few thousand years?
So are you saying Jews don’t exist either? That you can claim yourself an “ethnic Tel Avian” and Israel “occupied”? That you can justify because it was a long time ago and you maybe share a few strands of DNA with ancient Israelites?
There is no such thing as “pure” and “impure” ethnic identities LudaMara. There are only identities. Perhaps if you put away your hateful negative stereotypes you might realize that an ethnic identity isn’t a closed-loop static genetic or cultural relationship (myths). It’s organic. There are constant inputs both genetic and cultural. This would include ancient Greeks who took ideas from Egypt, Persia, and earlier cultures…. language from Phoenicians… and no doubt genetic inputs from plenty of other places.
We all came from Africa I hear. Where did you come from LudaMara?
ATANA : “the DNA analisis tell everything “dear greeks”.
the genetic is AN EXACT SCIENCE and they can PRECISELY tell you where you originate from.
why don’t you “pure greeks” that polute the net go and check your DNA. i dare yo”
I NOW THAT YOU IN FORMER YUGOSLAVIA HAD A LOT OF ISSUES ABOUT RACE PURITY DNA ISSUES AND THE LIKE…
REMEMBER, ALL COUNTRIES HAVE SOME CERTAIN MIXING WITH OTHERS. SPECIALLY GREEKS THAT TRAVELLED ALL AROUND THE WORLD. SO NO DOUBT THE THERE IS SOME ADDS FROM OTHER CULTURAL GROUPS. STILL, THE GREEK REALITY IS NOT ONLY TO BE FOUND IN DNA TRACES, BUT ALSO, IN ONE OF THE GREATEST CULTURES IN HUMAN HISTORY, AND, A LANGUAGE THAT IS STILL ALIVE TODAY, WITH SOME CHANGES, BUT BASICALLY THE SAME LANGUAGE, SAME ALPHABET.
YOU ARE SLAVS AND HAVE NOTHING OF GREEK, TO START WITH YOUR TRIBES WHERE CALLED BARBARIANS. BECAUSE YOU WHERE JUST RAIDING AROUND WHILE GREEK CREATED PHILOSOPHY, SCIENCES. ETC… THEY CREATED THE GROUND OF MODERN THINKING AND CIVILIZATION. MAKEDONIANS WERE A GREEK TRIBE, WHICH, AS ALL THE OTHER GREEK TRIBES AND POLIS, PARTICIPATED OF GREEK COMON CULTURAL, CONOMIC AND POLITICAL LIFE.
WE ARE NOT ONLY TALKING ABOUT DNA, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A CULTURAL UNITY, WITH A LANGUAGE THAT HAS BEEN ALIVE FOR MORE THAN 4000 YEARS.
AND NOW YOU COME AND PRETEND TO MAKE USE OF THAT ANCESTRY, AND THAT CULTURE, WHEN YOU ARE JUST SLAVS…
IT IS SO FUNNY THAT YOU DON´T EVEN KNOW WHAT MAKEDONIA MEANS. BECAUSE IT IS A GREEK NAME.
IF YOU CAN FIND 10 FYROMIANS WHO KNOW WHAT MAKEDONIA MEANS, ITS ORIGINS AND ALL ABOUT IT IN GREEK MITHOLOGY. THEN I PROMISE I WILL QUIT POSTING HERE.
BUT YOU CANNOT ROB THE NAME MAKEDONIA AND MAKE IT YOURS WHEN YOU DON´T EVEN KNOW WHAT IT MEANS.. IT IS JUST COMMON SENSE
PLEASE, STOP BEING THE CLOWNS OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND PUT A SLAVIC NAME TO YOUR SLAVIC SPEAKING COUNTRY. DONT GO AROUND ROBBING GREEK NAMES..
THANK YOU
LOOK FYROMIANS, YOU ARE GOING TO SUFFER A DOUBLE BLOCK TO EU ASCENSION FROM BULGARIA AND GREECE. JUST BECAUSE THIS STUPID THING OF TRYING TO COPY A GREEK ANCESTRAL NAME AND CALL YOUR COUNTRY SOMETHING IT IS NOT. MAKEDONIANS ARE GREEK, AND HAVE BEEN GREEK SINCE THE BEGINNING… YOU ARE SLAVS OF SLAV CULTURE AND SLAVIC LANGUAGE. I WOULD SHUT MY MOUTH UP IF YOU AT LEAST SPOKE GREEK, BUT NOT EVEN THAT…
THIS IS A VARDARIAN COMMENT ON INTERNET:
“Vardar Republic?
2009-11-12 22:30:50
Can someone tell me what is wron with Vardar Republic, Vardarska, or any derivative thereof? It’s geographically descriptive, it is historically descriptive (it was the name of the republic in the early 20th century), it does not alienate ethnic groups such as Albanians, it does not imply any territorial claims on its neighbors.”
THE NAME OF YOUR COUNTRY WHEN IT WAS CREATED WAS VARDARSKA, VARDAR. NOT THE NAME GIVEN TO IT AFTER WW II. YOU ARE SLAVS, NOT GREEK, AND IF YOU READ THE COMMENTS YOU WILL SEE THE FACTS CLEARLY, AND, IN THE MEANWHILE, LEARN SOME GREEK MYTHOLOGY AND HISTORY. MAKEDON, TO START WITH, IS A GREEK DEITY IN GREEK MITHOLOGY, MAKEDONIANS IS ONE OF THE GREEK TRIBES…
AND NOW,
I wonder from which origin was the first Greek KIng and later the first prime minister of Greece. From the times when Greece was established with direct order from Berlin and Moscow.
Also read the names of the graves of the rebels that have died during the wars prior the forming of the Greek state in 1820-30. They are all Albanians , but of course in Greek history they can not be anything else but Greeks.
Dear friends from Former Ottoman kingdom you should not hate us because we do not hate you.
You can put another Veto for EU as you did for NATO you can scare Island not to present the movie on Macedonia, you can push other EU members to support you, you can do whatever you want to bottom line is that by being evil you actually helped us additionally to strengthen our sense of Macedonian identity. Thank you for this and see you next summer on Chalkidiki, this time without visa of course ;) .
Efharisto megali ;) = thank you very much
CENSURE!!!! The film should be allowed to be shown, so as people can make up their own minds!
The Greek territorial aspirations toward Macedonia culminated in 1913, when the modern Greek state gained Aegean Macedonia for the first time. So began the “Hellenizing of Macedonia with all Macedonian toponyms, even personal names, any existing evidence of MACEDONIAN CULTURE wiped to be replaced with the “clean” Greek sounding ones! An ethnocide/genocide was put into motion by the Greek state which continues to this day, with the final goal of the Greek nationalist agenda being the lifting of the Macedonian name from the Macedonian people, who reserve a special hatred in the heart of modern Greeks? Macedonia and Macedonians have always been hostage to the nationalistic agendas of their neighbours, the implementation of which has left these people, esp. Greeks so radicalized as be impossible to come to any understanding with!
They understand only power, and that power will one day undo them!
SORRY JIM2 I HAVE A SEVERE FORM OF DYSLEXIA, IF YOU WHAT IT IS.
@Sir Euro
I’m on your side in the name dispute sir euro but I kindly ask that you discontinue typing in CAPS. Aside from by convention it being considered a form of shouting online, it also makes it much more difficult to read the replies. The shape of a letter is lost when all caps are used which slows down reading speeds.
(No offense intended. Just a general suggestion)
Pardon. I provided a couple of bad links here they are again.
Current sitting PM of FYROM laying a wreath in front of a map of “United Macedonia” (which includes Macedonia Greece annexed) This photo was only taken last year I think.
http://tinyurl.com/yhthau4
Everywhere you go on the Internet your will find this sort of “united Macedonia” imaginary (which includes Macedonia Greece annexed)
http://tinyurl.com/yhnsw8v
Sorry. While I don’t think every FYROM national is like this (e.g. their former PM Ljubco Georgievski seems like a decent man) I generally don’t trust FYROM’s empty promises with such erratic behavior on such a vast scale.
I also don’t trust the “experts” that once claimed it was just a childish dispute over just a name. I think history has shown they were dead wrong and Greeks had it right. I think a little trust is in order that Greeks aren’t all clueless peasants but unfortunately Greeks appear to have made some big enemies.
Some people say Greece is the bully here. I’d say Greece is the actually the one being bullied by much much bigger nations. The US seems to be using their vast control of mainsteam media to push their national agenda rather than fairly report both sides in the name dispute. I say this because when was the last time anyone heard a story focused on Greece’s end of the dispute?
For example, the US recognized FYROM in 2004 after sending troops to Iraq. Later Greece vetoed FYROM Nato membership (as it said upfront it would but no one thought such a tiny country would dare to stand up to the US head on). The NY Times editorial board in response ended up writing an article labeled “Shame on Greece”. In it they wildly misrepresented Greece’s concerns as “was barred for an absurd reason: Greece doesn’t like its name”.
http://theboard.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/shame-on-greece-messing-with-macedonia/
The NY Times omitted mentioning prior flat out US government denials of the existence of “ethnic Macedonians”. (are they saying the US and President Truman participated in ethnic cleansing in 1944 when they helped Greeks fight the communists trying to take over Macedonia Greece)
http://tinyurl.com/nel46d
They omitted mentioning that FYROM are mostly former 19th century self-identifying Bulgarians. Even today their very own national icons from IMRO were self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians (so how exactly do they have an unbroken connection to ancient Macedonia 2500 years ago?)
They’ve omitted mentioning several hundred well accredited historians from around the world are protesting FYROM’s historical revisionism.
http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html
They omitted mentioning the changing historical narrative of FYROM nationals in the last 10 years alone (their own elected government officials contradict their own historical narrative).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4
Perhaps most telling about the current prejudices and bullying going on against Greeks, they omitted mentioning the NY Times own newspaper reported FYROM national icon Gotse Delchev’s death in 1903… as an ethnic Bulgarian (Today rebranded in FYROM as an ethnic Macedonian who’s a direct descendant of ancient Macedonians in an unbroken chain… that speaks a south Slavic dialect instead of Greek?)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/delcheff.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/mxfcqq
the DNA analisis tell everything “dear greeks”.
the genetic is AN EXACT SCIENCE and they can PRECISELY tell you where you originate from.
why don’t you “pure greeks” that polute the net go and check your DNA. i dare you! :D
first the “greeks” were paranoic and saying that there is no such thing as Macedonians and Macedonia. now those same “greeks” who,as a matter of fact for most of them, came 80 years ago from Asia Minor call themselves “macedonian greek-btw wtf is that!?!” while we became “slavs” (which is purely linguistic term invented by the western ignorant scholars who invented “greece” in the first place) or “bulgars” who actually originate from asia as well and the rest of bulgaria is mostly populated by Turks,Macedonians,gypsies…
p.s. did you know that in TODAYS EU greece-“the cradle of democracy” there is no such thing as minority!!!!YES SIR,greece HAS NO MINORITIES! THEY ARE ALL PURE!! HAAAAHAHA
@Niels
“Jim, you seem to have an obsession with names. Apart form the naming dispute you have seized the name of another poster”
Again I didn’t “seize” the name. Its my own name. I am trying to adjust to make you and others more comfortable though I’m not trying to co-opt the other Jim’s identity. (much nicer than FYROM’s approach)
“If you call inhabitants of the republic of Macedonia ‘FYROM nationalists’ you are implying that ALL of them are evil agressors. A bit primitive isn’t it?”
Couldn’t I argue the same about your general arguments towards Greeks for most of this thread? (seemingly oversimplifying the name dispute to entirely FYROM’s POV)
“Furthermore you are claiming that FYROM will do anything to seize greek territory. If this is the case, then why is it so important for the country to change its name? The republic of Macedonia migt rename itself “Northern Macedonia” , “Republic of Skopje”, “Vardar Macedonia” or “FFUYFUYVGCRSESFJGYKY””
The name is an ultimate signifier of a national identity. Its not their use of “Macedonia” that actually bothers Greeks. It’s their use of the name to place hooks into Greek history and use them for territorial exasperations. I think you are well meaning Neils but what you fail to fully realize is many of their government officials are lying about their innocent “human rights” goals. (as did IMRO, as did Tito)
“So your reasoning just does not make sense.”
You are arguing a priori. FYROM (or should I say former Yugoslavians, and before that former Bulgarians) has tried this exact “Macedonian” approach twice in the last hundred years. (but it seems some people are interested only in wagging fingers rather than actually examining the historical facts)
e.g.
Hristo Tatarchev participated in a Bulgarian students’ legion, which took part in the Serbo-Bulgarian War of 1885. He co-authored the statues of the Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Committee (which was an organization exclusively for Bulgarians) which later on became IMRO. He is considered a icon in FYROM. His words…
“We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn’t accept the position for “direct joining to Bulgaria” because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria subsequently and if the worst comes to the worst, that it could play a role as a unificating link of a federation of Balkan people.”
“You ave every right to be concerned about the position of greek macedonians or macedonian greek but you cannot deny that Greece is not treating its own slavonian population correctly.”
You’d be right that Greece’s trust factor is very low for FYROM nationals living in Greece at the moment. I myself don’t trust them anywhere near Macedonia (since their goal isn’t to integrate its to annex Macedonia Greece to the former Yugoslav Republic)
However, the reality is aren’t that many of them despite how FYROM try to portray themselves as Jews in the ghettos of Nazi Germany. They even have a party that’s allowed to participate in general elections. Last time out they received a “whopping” 3000 votes in Macedonia (enough to fill a large banquette hall) In other words, there are more Macedonians that see themselves as Greeks than Slavs. (both in Greece and total numbers). In addition as I said all Greeks see ancient Macedonia as part of their own nations history.
Your attempt to suggest that Greeks are hostile to all Slavs is patently false. Greeks do not have an iota of a problem Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, etc… (since don’t appear interested in annexing Macedonia to their countries nor usurp Greeks of their nations heritage)
17 years ago Greece protested against calling FYROM “Macedonia”. FYROM’s own government officials at the time claimed it was just a childish dispute over a name and that they weren’t claiming to be ancient Macedonians. So who turned out to be right that is was far more than a name dispute and the FYROM government was lying?
Until FYROM back off the Alexander claims (vis-a-vis their use of the word “Macedonian”) relations in region will remain tense. If they can’t learn to respect the human rights of millions of Greeks (especially Macedonians) nor the territorial integrity of Greece there isn’t much room to move forward.
>Using your same reasoning please try and imagine the enormous discomfort of MILLIONS of Greek Macedonians (and all Greeks) feel now that FYROM (age 17 years old) refuses to compromise on a name and distinct identity for itself. (Modern Greece was formed in 1830)
Thank you Jim2. Yes – I will try to understand the issues you raise.
Pardon. I reverted back to using “Jim” again (force of habit) I’ll try and remember to use Jim2.
@Val
“To all Greeks nationalists here on this forum, please do not live in the past.”
A. Why are you telling Greeks how they should live.. while simultaneousness arguing Greeks can’t say anything about FYROm?
B. Is Greece building a 17 meter statue of Alexander in its capital or is that FYROM?
“(greece): bankrupt paranoid bully”
Greece has a substantially higher quality of life than FYROM. Even your own countrymen seem to want to move to it. (presumably so you former Yugoslavians former Bulgarians can later claim it as your “true” homeland and try and annex it like you did during the Balkan wars and later Tito era.)
“very quick to lend helping hand when NATO bombed Kosovo & Metohija”
There was very real ethnic cleansing going on in Yugoslavia. As far as I know Nato didn’t set up torture camps. Still waiting for those WMDS in Iraq Val. You know the one’s that cost over 100K Iraqis (and counting) their lives. There were very real gulags of Abu Gharaib were people were tortured days on end. Many politicians shamefully continue to bury their heads in the sand on this issue. (since we know it went to the top) This breaks the Geneva conventions.
If you tell the different between then you don’t know the difference between right and wrong Val.
“It is artistic expression, for God sake!!!”
And I fully support his right to make films. I also fully support my right to call out ill-informed biased FYROM government funded propaganda when I see it. Hitler hired artists too I hear. Are you saying Greeks don’t have a right to object to the contents of the film?
“You can quote “reputable” sites like youtube in your arguments”
Actually if you look further up I provided direct references to several UN General Assembly resolutions, the official US government website for Truman, and reputable news sources like Time. (apparently all ethnic cleansers seeing as they supported Greece not your grandfathers at the time)
Most of the Youtube type links are usually to do with current FYROM nationalists. FYROM seem to use it as like a cold war propaganda outlet since no reputable academic will support their outrageous claims to be direct descendants of ancient Macedonians.
“Greece is solely Christian Ortodox when you have minorities, like Turks, Macedonians”
Greece is far from perfect. One problem is its a gateway to Europe from nearby very poor nations (something a country like Iceland doesn’t have to face with a nearly homogeneous population and few immigrants) I would agree that Greece needs to find some way handle the massive number of illegals in a more humane way. (which is hard for a country of only 10 million with literally millions of illegals to deal with).
I also think that the christian church has too much political control which make it hard for other religions(I’m an atheist myself). This mindset is changing but its hard to break immediately with over a thousand years of fundamentalist Christianity. It isn’t a minority issue though. The christians even try to restrict the rights of ethnic Greeks that want to pray to the ancient Gods.
For the most part Greece has a substantially better human rights record than FYROM so I have no idea why you are trying to lecture Greece. Frankly, I don’t think you give a damn about minorities. Your treatment of Greeks, Bulgarians, and Albanians makes that abundantly clear. You are only saying that to lump yourselves into the equation.
“Are you going to bully all of the 124 countries of the world who recognised us as well”
All they recognize is your constitutional name… not your wild historical claims champ.
Your mudslinging is a perfect example of what a FYROM “good neighbourly relations” look like (and why Greeks are returning the favour). Here are some more for those that might think FYROM are innocent victims.
(pay close attention to the nation of origin)
http://tinyurl.com/yz5lg2d
http://tinyurl.com/yhtfp6f
But thats not the big issue. The problem is the irredentist behavior.
Here is a FYROM “human rights” parade in Melborne where giant banners openly calling for the annexation of Thessaloníki Greek to FRYOM (which they refer to as Solun… a name unknown to ancient Macedonians who knew it as Thessaloníki)
http://tinyurl.com/ygfy5mg
Or how about the current sitting PM laying a wreath in front of a map of “United Macedonia” (which includes Macedonia Greece annexed)
http://tinyurl.com/ygfy5mg
Everywhere you go on the internet your will find images of “united Macedonia”
http://tinyurl.com/yhnsw8v
Funny how these “accidents” keep happening over and over again Val. Seems to me FYROM is insecure of its Slavic roots so they want to erase the existence of Greek Macedonians and proclaim themselves the one and only “Macedonians” (using “human rights” as a front to promote the agenda) That would mean they want to write another chapter in the Balkan Wars.
As they say. Molon Labe.
@Jim the Greek,
Jim, you seem to have an obsession with names. Apart form the naming dispute you have seized the name of another poster and you fail to write my very own name (which is not so difficult) correctly even a single time :-)
If you call inhabitants of the republic of Macedonia ‘FYROM nationalists’ you are implying that ALL of them are evil agressors. A bit primitive isn’t it?
Furthermore you are claiming that FYROM will do anything to seize greek territory.
If this is the case, then why is it so important for the country to change its name?
The republic of Macedonia migt rename itself “Northern Macedonia” , “Republic of Skopje”, “Vardar Macedonia” or “FFUYFUYVGCRSESFJGYKY”, it still would not stop the “enormous threat” against Greece.
So your reasoning just does not make sense.
You ave every right to be concerned about the position of greek macedonians or macedonian greek but you cannot deny that Greece is not treating its own slavonian population correctly.
RITSVOSKI “including Macedonian language”
SORRY BUT YOU CANNOT CALL “MACEDONIAN” SOMETHING THAT IS THE BULGARIAN LANGUAGE LARGELY SPOKEN IN WESTBULGARIA.
YOUR LANGUAGE IS BULGARIAN, A SLAVIK DIALECT. THE ONLY LANGUAGE THAT IS WIDELY CONSIDERED AS MACEDONIAN IS THE DIALECTICAL VARIETY OF GREEK THAT IS SPOKEN IN THAT GREEK REGION.
THE CONCEPT OF “MACEDONIAN” AS A LANGUAGE WAS NOT KNOWN BEFORE THE II WORLD WAR. IT IS JUST A POLITICAL PRODUCT FOR DIFFERENCIATING THE BULGARIAN DIALECT AND MAKE IT MORE “YUGOSLAVIAN”. IT IS TRUE THAT THIS BULGARIAN DIALECT HAS SOME “SERBIAN” WORDS, BUT THIS IS NATURAL IN ALL SLAVIC LANGUAGES FROM POLISH TO RUSSIAN AND FROM SERBIAN TO BULGARIAN.. THERE ARE VERY IMPORTANT SIMILARITIES, AND A HIGH LEVEL OF MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING. POLISH CAN READ TCHEK TEXT WITHOUT PROBLEMS AND SO ON…
Terry,
I’ve adjusted to make you happy. I’d just like to say something about your comments.
“Jim – you have something to say, but it is clouded by confusion as to which Jim is speaking, and your inflexibility on the matter of identity is not helpful.”
“It’s just not good etiquette Jim. Jimbo (the original Jim) has been posting here for quite some time.
Using your same reasoning please try and imagine the enormous discomfort of MILLIONS of Greek Macedonians (and all Greeks) feel now that FYROM (age 17 years old) refuses to compromise on a name and distinct identity for itself. (Modern Greece was formed in 1830)
@Goran
Just one more point about your empty “assurances”
“Please be informed that no one here in Macedonian Macedonia :) wants to take Greek territory and no one claims that we are deriving from the Alexander the great exclusively”
“Official data show the authorities are paying thousands of people to work on archaeological projects. The director of the Bureau for Protection of Cultural Heritage, archaeologist Pasko Kuzman, says their work will prove that today’s Macedonians descend from the Macedonians of Classical Antiquity – not from the Slavs who migrated into the Balkans from the 5th-century onwards.”
“Macedonia can only defend its name, if it proves that the Macedonian nation has Classical Antique and not Slavic roots,” Kuzman said on a local TV show in June.”
Kuzman it the current head of FYROM government’s archeology/cultural department. He claims not to be Slavic now and is actually a direct descendant of ancient Macedonians (in an unbroken chain no less).
Meanwhile….
“However, former prime minister and former VMRO-DPMNE leader Ljubco Georgievski is scornful. The government is “surfing on a wave of populism,” he maintains.
“Those advocating the thesis of Classical Antiquity in Macedonia are aggressive and vulgar, and now we have a problem of people arguing over who is Antique and who is Slavic Macedonian,” he continues.
http://fellowship.birn.eu.com/en/main/alumni_articles/23131/
Or how about this large FYROM self-proclaimed “human rights” organization. Their mission statement includes a line that openly advocates Greek Macedonians (and Greeks) should be prevented from using the name Macedonia?
“5. b) Promote the good name of all Macedonians, by promoting the fact that the name Macedonia can ONLY be synonymous with the people who are nationally determined as Macedonians;”
http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/about_us.html
Unfortunately “Human rights” and “minority rights” are buzz words that sometimes appear to dull some brains into not questioning the validity of whether the assertions are indeed intended in the interests of all humans… or simply to push an agenda of a select few. (why NGO’s while a valuable tool also have to be taken with a grain of salt because of the political agendas behind whomever funds them)
So where are you cries for the human rights of Greeks Macedonians Goran? (and Greeks in general since they all equally consider ancient Macedonia part of their collective history).
And why again did your own elected leaders claim your weren’t related to ancient Macedonians… yet today they seem to be claiming to be direct descendants of ancient Macedonians in an unbroken chain to antiquity? Did history change in the last 10 years? Was there some archaeological discovery that showed Alexander was actually Slavic? Is the fact your own elected government officials can’t get your ethnic narrative straight Greece’s fault too? Is FYROM saying they consider themselves partial to Greek culture… like ancient Macedonians did?
And why is it you speak a Slavic language again? If FYROM are “proud ancient Macedonians” that treasure their ancient culture… shouldn’t they at least be speaking Greek like ancient Macedonians did?
It seems to me FYROM doesn’t know what it wants. The only thing uniting them is their common hatred of Greeks (whom they blame for all the ethnic identity problems of their own making)
“We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
“Who is against a greater Bulgaria is against Slavism”
“Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians”
(Krste Misirkov, FYROM national icon, in ‘On Macedonian Matters’)
http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm
AND PLEASE, CALL YOURSELFS WEST BULGARIA OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THAT NAME YOU USE NOW IS RIDICULOUS “FYRONIANS”, ARE YOU FROM ANOTHER PLANET ? FYROM SOUNDS LIKE THE NAME OF A PLANET IN STARK TRECK… HI I AM CAPITAN SPOCK FROM FYROM… HAHAHA…
THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS JUST LAUGHING AT THIS NATION, EVERYONE IN THIS WORLD WITH A MINIMUM OF EDUCATION KNOWS THAT MACEDONIA IS A GREEK REGION, UNIVERSALLY KNOWN BECAUSE ONE OF THE GREATEST FIGURES IN HISTORY ALEXANDER THE GREAT, WHO EXPANDED THE GREEK EMPIRE AND GREEK LANGUAGE AND CULTURE AROUND THE WORLD…
>Geee, sprinkles (hagelslag)…where did you get that from :-)
I thought the practice was totally unknown outside of the Benelux!
Embarrassingly, whilst having tea in the staff restaurant with Dutch colleagues in Rotterdam – I was faced with a platter of bread and hagelslag. Not knowing what I should do – I observed my colleagues buttering the bread and sprinkling the hagelslag. I followed their lead, and as we do in my part of the world, I folded the slice to make a butty
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/butty
As I was about to bite – I observed my fellow diners eating their ‘sprinkled’ bread from a plate with knives and forks – so I slid and unfolded my bread to the plate and did so too. Still didn’t like it. It reminded me of sugar sprinkled on bread and margarine in the ration post war years. Sorry to be off topic everyone!
“WHo for good sake can nowadays in 21 century claim that I’am not Macedonian, is there anybody who is stupid enough to claim that after my grand father, my father who were Macedonians now I should be something else, somebody offensively suggested Bulgarian ”
I CLAIM IT, FYROM WAS DENOMINATED THE MAKEDONIA REGION IN FORMER YUGOSLAVIA. THE LANGUAGE, WHO IS BASICALLY BULGARIAN AND PRACTICALLY THE SAME LANGUAGE THAT BULGARIAN SPEAK, WAS CONVERTED INTO SERBIAN ALPHABET TO MAKE IT MORE “YUGOSLAVIAN”. BOTH, THE NAMING OF MAKEDONIA AND THE ALPHABET WERE ONLY POLITICAL STRATEGIES FOR STOPING BULGARIAN GOVERNMENT IN POSSIBLE CLAIMS OF TERRITORY.
NOW. YOU SPEAK BULGARIAN, BUT YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE GREEK. BECAUSE MACEDONIANS HAVE BEEN AND WILL ALWAYS BE THE PEOPLE OF A GREEK REGION.
IF YOU CLAIM YOURSELF BEING MACEDONIANS THEN YOU WOULD BE SPEAKING GREEK, LOOKING LIKE GREEKS AND HAVING GREEK CULTURE. BUT YOU HAVE NOTHING OF THAT BECAUESE YOU ARE SLAVS… BULGARIANS.
AND NOW PLEASE… HAVE SOME IDEA OF WHAT SHAME MEANS AND CORRECT THE MISTAKES AND EXPERIMENTS YOUR YUGOSLAVIAN GOVERNMENT DID WITH YOU. YOU SHOULD BE CALLED BIELOBULGARIANS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT AS YOU HAVE RUSSIA AND BIELORRUSIA. BUT MACEDONIANS?? HOW COME? YOU HAVE NOTHING OF GREEK!!
To “Jim”
Well the reference to Afganistan & Iraq naturaly comes as Greece is mamber of NATO & put veto on Repbulic of Macedonia becoming member of that organisation.
Altough it was the first nation among the 3 pretenders for the membership to acompish all the stipulations given by NATO.
And please do not tell me your Govermant do not want to kill inocent people in Iraq & Afganistan, altough you were very quick to lend helping hand when NATO bombed Kosovo & Metohija
Which btw was/is part od souverne state Republic os Serbia, your traditional friend and ally.
You realy do not have other comment on my post, as all of them are facts, so you are picking on my coment about the Macedonian solders beeing part of NATO troups, thas all!
To all Greeks nationalists here on this forum, please do not live in the past..
Alex the Great lived 2500yrs ago, Ancient Hellenic Citystates were force to recon with 3000 yrs ago. Now fast forward to 21 century, and my question to you is: WHAT IS GREECE TODAY??
Answer: bankrupt paranoid bully, who is scared of small nation like Island and of an film which might or might not apeal to the people watching it.
It is artistic expression, for God sake!!!
You can quote “reputable” sites like youtube in your arguments & guess I can do the same, BUT the point is WE DO EXIST and we together with the Turks, not to mention Albanians are thorn in your side.
Just one last question, how your Govermant can calim that you are 95% population is Greek and the religion in Greece is solely Christian Ortodox when you have minorities, like Turks, Macedonians, Vlahs,Pomaks,Albanians….
Can Greek govermant forbid mix marriages?
Is that legal in 21 cntury Europe and member state of EU?
All excuses and arguments over the name Macedonia are futile when you see from the sidelines how Greece is bullying Island small country, thousends of miles removed from the dispute between Republic of Macedonia & Greece.
Are you going to bully all of the 124 countries of the world who recognised us as well, specialy the 74 ones who recognise us under our constitutional name??
Love to see you pick up an fight with with US, Russia & China!!
Just leave Island alone, do not your Govermant have shame??
I GUESS THAT IF JEWS CLAIMED THEIR HOMELAND AFTER BEING OCCUPIED FOR MORE THAN 2000 YEARS, I THINK GREEKS COULD CLAIM THE PART OF FYROM THAT WAS GREEK AS WELL.
JIM “Yet when FYROM refer to Macedonians they seem to want to monopolize the name to include Greek Macedonia. This presents a serious problem for 2.5 million Greek Macedonians (and all Greeks) that would prefer not to be erased from history because Yugoslavia had a civil war and FYROM has an ethnic identity crisis. ”
THIS IS A GOOD POINT, PROBABLY THE CLOSEST TO REALITY.
@Sasho
In case you didn’t notice…your own results would indicate that Greeks share DNA in common with ancient Macedonians too. 5% of Greek population would mean roughly the same total number as FRYOM .. plus of course your statistics show Greeks are also strongly genetically related to ancient Greeks. Yet, FYROM’s recent Manu encyclopedia claimed Greeks are actually sub-saharan? Interesting cherry picking of sources that.
Personally I see DNA as a poor scientific method to argue ethnicity. (and I say this despite that the vast majority of DNA studies into modern Greek DNA show a substantial proportion of the population is indeed genetically related to ancient Greeks)
Mostly what those DNA tests say is that there was a common ancestor at one one point (I’m sure Greeks, FYROM nationalists and Icelanders share one or two ancient Egyptian genes too). It doesn’t say the ethnicity of all your other ancestors. (which are from many sources since there are no such thing as pure races)
DNA kit companies are particularly terrible in this regard. Igenea is a for profit company that has zero accountability for its scientific claims. For instance, why did they unilaterally decide to separate out Macedonian DNA from the rest of ancient Greek population? Are they saying ancient Athenians, Spartans, Macedonians, et al didn’t intermarry for a thousand years (e.g. during the Hellenistic period especially). I’d say the decision of Igenea to separate out the DNA was implicitly a political decision on the part of Igenea.
In addition, I know for a fact Igenea has been queried many times to reveal the source of its curious “ancient Macedonian” DNA assertions. If you ask them yourself Sasho you’ll discover they’ll point you to a long pdf with references… that makes not even a single mention of the word “Macedonian”! No one in the larger scientific community outside of Igenea seems to have duplicated their “scientific” results. In fact most reputable geneticists call DNA kit companies scams that misrepresent the scientific data.
For instance, lets suppose I’m from FYROM and I do a test that says I have some DNA in common with Alexander. The lab calls me up the next day and says they made a mistake and I actually share more in common genetically with an ancient Ethiopian. Did my ethnicity change? (Perhaps if my name is Sasho it might)
Here is what FYROM’s own former elect PM Ljubco Georgievski says about the current FYROM government’s approach to their own ethnic identity.
“To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ”
http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI
(meanwhile some foreigners are trying to foist “Macedonianism” on the country when FYROM’s very own high ranking former government officials can’t agree)
I find it fascinating how Sasho is tying to “prove” he is “ancient Macedonian” by strictly racial means. (implicitly a racist approach to ethnicity- a subject that encompassed far more many factors which typically include history, language, and culture) He is jumping from 500 BC to the present with no concern whatsoever for what happened in the last 2500 years of history.
As far as I know what that history seems to show is most of the people in FYROM freely associated as Slavs (still do… or at least some do). However, lets say they are unhappy with being Slavic. The question then becomes did ancient Macedonians associate with Slavic culture and language or Greek culture and language? Last I checked ethnic titles also come with cultural attributes as well.
Is anyone prevented FYROM from adopting Greek…the preferred language of ancient Macedonians? (rather than lazily rebranding Bulgarian as “Macedonian”) And if ancient Macedonians were self-identifying Greeks… doesn’t this implicitly also mean FYROM is also now claiming to be ancient Greeks?
So are Greeks to blame FYROM’s ancestors considered themselves Bulgarians? Are Greeks suppose to start pretending they can’t read the Greek inscriptions on ancient Macedonian artifacts? Are Greeks supposed to be held indefinitely hostage while FYROM tries to figure out what they are and how to revise human history to suit their national narrative?
Exactly what nation on earth would be safe from irredentist claims using a few strands of shared DNA in common as an argument?(or suggestions the other nation is “mongrel”) Here I thought we all share DNA in common and culture is what distinguishes nations. Here I thought we put that sort of blatant racism to a close with WW2. Apparently I was wrong.
THE ??? “i do not understand the greeks. they are macedonians and greeks? i think that they are paranoid and greeks.. am i wrong”
MACEDONIA HAS BEEN ALWAYS A GREEK REGION, SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIMES. YOU CAN BE FROM KRETA, ANOTHER GREEK REGION, BUT YOU ARE STILL A GREEK.
YOU CAN BE A PARISIAN, OR SOMEONE FROM LION… YOU ARE STILL FRENCH, OR YOU CAN BE A BERLINER OR OR SOMEONE FROM SACHEN… YOU ARE STILL GERMAN…
GREECE IS A COUNTRY, AND MACEDONIA IS A REGION IN GREECE. FOR EXAMPLE I AM FROM LUGANO, WELL, I AM TICCINESSE AND AT THE SAME TIME SWISS…
SOME PEOPLE NEED TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL AND TAKE SOME LESSONS OF GEOGRAPHY.
Jim
I said –
“you have something to say, but it is clouded by confusion as to which Jim is speaking,”
The posting was before reading your response to Goran.
Now, I can tell the difference between you and Jim.
Still bad etiquette though!
>Why are you repeating this when I just finished telling you its my name. I am not “pretending” to be Jim. Nor am I claiming to be Icelandic, claiming Icelandic territory, or claiming the language of Iceland is a Greek dialect. (Unlike FYROM of Greece)
It’s just not good etiquette Jim. Jimbo (the original Jim) has been posting here for quite some time. I am surprised that registration to the forum does not ‘lock out’ duplicate use of a posting identity.
Jim – you have something to say, but it is clouded by confusion as to which Jim is speaking, and your inflexibility on the matter of identity is not helpful.
@Goran
“What is the difference between Greek Macedonians and ordinary Greeks (because people from Tesalia and Athens are not claiming to be Macedonians)”
What’s the difference between a FYROM nationalist that used to freely self-identify as Bulgarian and call his language a Bulgarian dialect? Is renaming the country “Macedonia” rather than “western Bulgaria” make FYROM more Macedonian than Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians, or Turks? Here I though ethnicity had also something to do with culture, language, and history.
“Can some of the hidden Greeks here explain how curent Greeks succeed to protect the “purity” of the Greek nation and Hellenism for 23 century being this way the only European nation that did not mix with other ethnic groups.”
I already finished answered this Goran.
i.e.
” Greeks are of course not “pure” (just one more negative stereotype FYROM spreads about Greeks) However, I have to ask what ethnic group is? Are Jews, a nomadic people, identical genetically and culturally as 3000 years ago? Chinese? Egyptians? Persians? Ethopians? etc..etc.. So why is everyone picking on Greeks all of sudden?
Yet when FYROM refer to Macedonians they seem to want to monopolize the name to include Greek Macedonia. This presents a serious problem for 2.5 million Greek Macedonians (and all Greeks) that would prefer not to be erased from history because Yugoslavia had a civil war and FYROM has an ethnic identity crisis. ”
Perhaps if your negative stereotypes of Greeks weren’t so preprogrammed you’d have been able to process that information.
“Please be informed that no one here in Macedonian Macedonia :) wants to take Greek territory and no one claims that we are deriving from the Alexander the great exclusively”
Actually wrong on both counts. FYROM nationalist constantly make references to Macedonia Greece as “occupied” (even on this thread). The secondary question is why are you referencing yourselves as ancient Macedonians at all? Need I remind the words of your own prior elected leaders?
“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President – Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4
@Neils
“Im first of all I do not approve of the fact that you are posting under the name of somebody who has been around on this forum much longer than you and whose contributions are well-respected. In doing so you (deliberately) are trying to give more credibility to your own opinions.”
Why are you repeating this when I just finished telling you its my name. I am not “pretending” to be Jim. Nor am I claiming to be Icelandic, claiming Icelandic territory, or claiming the language of Iceland is a Greek dialect. (Unlike FYROM of Greece)
“I am not objecting against freedom of speech: I just consider the use of offensive words to deptict a certain nationality inadmissable”
I prefer to use the term “FYROM nationalists” myself but in defense of the other poster-who decided the word “FYROMian” was suddenly offensive but you and FYROM nationals? (both of which are obviously non-neutral in the name dispute). It is not a curse word already. This is just a sneaky way of trying to slowly force Greeks to call them “Macedonians”. I’d say you just tried to suppress freedom of speech-while simultaneously giving lectures about it.
“How on earth could this country ever threaten NATO member Greece?”
The first question is WHY should Greece deal with this perpetual ethnic harassment and security threat from FYROM? (Claiming themselves ancient Macedonians. Claiming Greece occupied.)
Secondly if you read my prior posts you will find I mentioned Turkey and FYROM are great friends today (neither country seems to have much respect for Greek territorial integrity these days). Turkey has seven times Greece’s population. It is not hard to imagine a future scenario where the decide to divide up Macedonia. (seeing Turkey has some natives that live in adjacent Thrace)
You are unfortunately transplanting the way things in one part of Europe into another. What you fail to grasp Neil this is the history of how the Balkans work (see Yugoslav breakup). FYROM “assurances” are worthless for as long as FYROM keeps making references to themselves as ancient Macedonians. (effectively implying Macedonia Greece is “occupied”)
“in the EU it is usual that national minorities (especially when they only account for a small percentage of the national population ) have certain rights: they can use their own langiuage in dailylie and have access to education int heir own language.”
And how exactly does FYROM changing its name prevent it from having its own culture, language and education Neils? Aren’t they the one’s arguing its “a name is just a name” and the dispute is silly? Or are you saying they are being dishonest when they argue that and a name is more than a name?
“Finally I am a bit stunned that you are even quoting albanian president Berisha to support your opinion.
Berisha is not exactly a friend of Greece isn’t it?”
My point of bringing up Albanians AND Bulgarians is to demonstate its not only Greeks that are saying the FYROM government are fabricating history on an epic scale (plenty of accreditted historians are saying it too) It seems to me you don’t care at all about the negative effects of their government lies on Greeks, Albanians, and Bulgarians Neil.
For all I know in a hundred years they will rebrand themselves “ethnic Athenians” and people like you will claim blindly and self-righteously “oh we have to respect minorities”… as if protecting the rights of Greek Macedonians don’t also matter.
I’d just like to say from my perspective it is FYROM that are the ones denying Greeks their ethnic identity (especially Greek Macedonians). They’ve built their whole new national narrative around being descendants of ancient Macedonians. Did history change each time FYROM rewrites its national narrative? For as long as Greek Macedonians exist it breaks their historical narrative. That’s why FYROM are trying to erase Greeks in everything but name.
From my perspective FYROM appear to be wannabe ethnic cleansers Neils. You are calling the oppressors the persecuted. You don’t seem at all concerned with the protecting the rights of Greeks (especially Macedonians in Greece ) in the larger global context. Only protecting FYROM’s rights seems to interest you.
Dear all,
I would like to ask all the professional propagandists to leave this forum since you are destroying the real discussion. To all Jim’s and other fake figures here : please do not not use stupid arguments like “Veto is a common sense” because this does not help the situation.
I have two questions:
What is the difference between Greek Macedonians and ordinary Greeks (because people from Tesalia and Athens are not claiming to be Macedonians)
secondo,
WHo for good sake can nowadays in 21 century claim that I’am not Macedonian, is there anybody who is stupid enough to claim that after my grand father, my father who were Macedonians now I should be something else, somebody offensively suggested Bulgarian . For the non under covered Greeeks here it would be the same like somebody claim that Islanders are Swedish or Danish because in the certain part of the History they shared same history or administration(and please stop putting stupid links to sites that have no scientific relevance)
Na on more bonus question
Can some of the hidden Greeks here explain how curent Greeks succeed to protect the “purity” of the Greek nation and Hellenism for 23 century being this way the only European nation that did not mix with other ethnic groups.
PS lease be informed that no one here in Macedonian Macedonia :) wants to take Greek territory and no one claims that we are deriving from the Alexander the great exclusively. Me and other 120,000 Macedonians are spending our holidays in Greek seaside without any problem having normal Greeks friends. If half of the false claims by the hidden Greeks here are correct than no way half of the Macedonian economy would owned by the Greek companies.
In my opinion Is it simply a fight for the brand Macedonia same as two countries would fight in they have to share NIKE as a comercial producst. Unfortunately “Company” is not strong to fight on the market ;)
@Jim, the Greek,
Jim first of all I do not approve of the fact that you are posting under the name of somebody who has been around on this forum much longer than you and whose contributions are well-respected. In doing so you (deliberately) are trying to give more credibility to your own opinions.
Secondly I would like to ask you not to distort my words. I am NOT objecting to the use of FYROM, I am objecting to the use of the word ‘fyromian’ in order to depict a citizen of FYROM.
I am not objecting against freedom of speech: I just consider the use of offensive words to deptict a certain nationality inadmissable.
Thirdly I would like to say that I am not antiGreek at all. In fact I like Greece very much. I just do not approve of the fact that Greece is bullying its northern neighbour, one of the poorest countries in Europe with only 2 million inhabitants. How on earth could this country ever threaten NATO member Greece?
Moreover, while you are busy summing up ‘hostile acts’ of Republic of Macedonia/FYROM against Greece you are silent about the fact that Greece is not treating its slavonian minority correctly (whether you call them ‘slavs’ , ‘bulgarians’ or whatever).
In the EU it is usual that national minorities (especially when they only account for a small percentage of the national population ) have certain rights: they can use their own langiuage in dailylie and have access to education int heir own language.
Finally I am a bit stunned that you are even quoting albanian president Berisha to support your opinion.
Berisha is not exactly a friend of Greece isn’t it?
If there is one country actually threatening Greece, claiming the whole territory of Epiros, in order to create a ‘greater Albania” it is Albania (just like Albania is claiming the western part of the Republic of Macedonia/FYROM).
I think your energy in defending Greece could be used much more effectively against Albania, not against the republic of Macedonia/FYROM.
I also would like to give you an icelandic source, about the fact that Greece was pressuring the icelandic embassy in Washinghton, not to show the movie “a name is a name’ :
http://mbl.is/mm/frettir/innlent/2009/11/18/mynd_islendings_um_makedoniu_veldur_uppnami_i_grikk/
“I’m Jim just like you. Neither of us have an issue with that. (Jim is the finest name in the world we can both agree :) However, were you to claim my property and identity as you own that would be considered fraud and identity theft.”
LOL. Don’t worry, I’m not going to move into your house and claim conjugal rights with your wife.
to Kiro Velkovski
The fact you state Athens as a country shows what you know. Macedonia was never a filthy and forbidden word in Greece.
And if indeed you are backed up by truths…how come your own politicians admit they are not Macedonians? Were they not elected democraticaly? Do they not represent FYROM?
Just check my references on my previous posts!
Looks to me that the problem and possibility of the bunch of lies is with FYROM and not Greece. And it is MUCH easier to sell a story where you are not bound by the facts but you can lie as much as you like indeed. And Macedonian truth is one and we are bound by the facts indeed yet the facts from FYROMS side are unclear and not solid judging from the actions of their leaders.
@Val
You state “know of 300 strong Macedonian contingent in the Green Zone in Baghdad and 200 strong contingent in Khabul, & MKD is NOT member of NATO!!
That should tell you something.”
Your point has nothing to do with name dispute. Might I recommend you use it to pander to the far right wing element in America because I doubt it will appeal very much to far more peaceful Icelanders
Mind you your point certainly does say something to me about the lengths that FYROM will go to get anyone to recognize it.
In short, FYROM was willing to kill Iraqis (a people that never did it an ounce of harm) for a war built of lies… simply in the hopes of getting a reward from the US.
It worked out for you. Bush gave you recognition as “Macedonians” in 2004 after decades of non-US recognition. (somewhat humorously since in so doing Bush indirectly insinuated former President Truman was participating in ethnic cleansing for flat out denying the existence of “ethnic Macedonians” in 1944)
Greece on the other hand refused to send troops out of principle despite that they obviously must have known it would be costly political decision. On the plus side, Greece had nothing to do with the shameful act of sending Muslims to Abu Ghraib /Guantanamo Bay to be tortured nor the hundred thousand plus Iraqis that were killed to find WMDs… that didn’t actually exist.
Keep up the great “human rights” work there Val.
i do not understand the greeks. they are macedonians and greeks? i think that they are paranoid and greeks.. am i wrong? i can tell you how brainwashed they really are because i you have ever been to northern greece you will see many signs throughout the macedonian territory which read “Macedonia is Greece”. haha, thats real funny. so if i am greek and am reading this sign i will believe this. so i do not blame the citizens. but in a way i would because if the sign read “Aliens are going to invade tomorrow” then i think majority will not believe, but then again who knows. why is greece so paranoid, they must be hiding something, 100% they are, macedonians know the greeks know they just dont want other nations to know so they try to cover it up. why cant a icelandic citizen make a film about macedonia??? is this a joke!!!??? why dont greece just make a movie counter on what the icelandic had to say in his film. america doesnt even tell hollywood or what ever not to make films about what goes on i mean look at michael moore for instance. so then again i come back to the same question, what does greece have to hide??? if they know the truth then, sit back relax and let nature take its course. i u have done nothing wrong then why would filmaker from iceland be interested in making a movie about u. also i would like to add that greece dont use the term Fyrom in there country, to them we are a city, the call us Skopia, or skopjanos which refers to the capital city of Macedonia- Skopje. Wow, they really dont like the Macedonians. so wiping out the term fyrom and calling them skopia your erasing the letter M from fyrom. i think that they are a bunch of idiots the politicians in greece and have no idea who the macedonians are or even where macedonia is. lol@dora the explorer bykoyarkis haha. anyway there is only 1 Macedonian nation, and 1 Macedonian city, so whats your problem greece??? lol i know ciao
I think NGO’s play a very valuable role balancing governments against minorities. Their voices definitely shouldn’t be squashed even if they can get a little too self-righteous for my tastes.
Having said that, NGO’s don’t have the resources of governments nor are the always in the moral high ground. They tend to be very small operations in most countries where just a handful of people make all kinds of policy decisions. They can also be run by people with all sorts of political agendas that have very little to do with human rights (but use the term “human rights” to manipulate the public)
For example, Helsinki International went bankrupt due to a massive accouting fraud a few years ago.
http://www.ihf-hr.org/
In the case of Helsinki Greece they constantly talk about “Macedonians in Greece” as if 2.5 million Greeks don’t identify as Macedonians or that millions more Greeks don’t consider ancient Macedonia part of their history (and as if there is no name dispute going on). They apparently don’t even notice that FYROM went from not being ancient Macedonians into being ancient Macedonians… in the last 10 years? How can Greece be oppressing an ethnic identity that keeps changing its tune?
To frame such a complex sensitive matter in such a blind single sided matter tells me there is some sort of secret agenda going on with Helsinki Greece. They are clearly on the side of the FYROM government. (the head of Helsinki Greece recently went to Toronto to speak at a FYROM benefit… hardly something that can be called “observer status”)
Greece is by no means perfect. It definitely needs to find a way to humanely deal with the millions of illegals that flood it (which is hard for a country of only 10 million). Also opening a non-Greek orthodox place of worship can be a huge hassle.(fundamentalist christians even harass ethnic Greeks that want to pray to the ancient Gods so its not an ethnic issue)
In any case…
FYROM consistently ranks substantially lower that Greece in terms of quality of life and freedom by most international rankings. Yet apparently this doesn’t stop their nationalists from constantly giving lectures to Greece about “human rights”.
My advice would be they should take a good look in the mirror at how they treat Greeks, Bulgarians, and Albanians… before pointing fingers at others. (especially Albanians who they occasionally known to torture and kill)
http://www.alb-net.com/amcc/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXdg3Lk8N6Y
Unsurprisingly Mr. Einarsson somehow missed how FYROM treats its own minorities in his “unbiased” reporting. (not to mention he seemed oblivious to the existence of 2.5 million Macedonians in Greece). Apparently human rights and the right to self-identification doesn’t include Greek Macedonians in Mr. Einarsson’s eyes. The dirty Greek it to blame for everything.
Hi, this is post form the institute iGENEA and it speaks about genetic profile of people that live in Republic of Macedonia.
•Clarification – iGENEA works together closely with FamilytreeDNA. The DNA-Analyses are performed in the laboratory of FamilytreeDNA in Houston (USA). FamilyTreeDNA was founded in 2000 and was the first company in the world to carry out DNA-genealogy tests that concentrated on genealogical research. Today, FamilyTreeDNA possesses the largest genealogical DNA database in the world. iGENEA is the European branch of Family Tree DNA, the leading organisation for DNA genealogy. FamilyTreeDNA carries out 90% of all DNA genealogy tests worldwide. The focus of our area of research lies on the analysis of European origins and the comparison of historical, anthropological, and archaeological sources with the newest discoveries from the field of genetics. iGENEA wants to learn, which indigenous peoples left their traces in Europe and what fascinating and multitudinous roots today’s Europeans still carry in them. iGENEA is a bridge between historical research and genetics and seeks to use the advantages offered by both fields in an interdisciplinary manner, in order to learn more about our origins. While research in the field of history provides the underlying theory, methods of genetic research enable us to evaluate the effects and truth content of the underlying historical assumptions.
Post from iGENEA to 26.09.2008
“A Macedonian genetic profile exists and has been discovered through the comparison of archaeological finds and persons with Macedonian roots. These studies enable us to determine the Macedonian roots of a person. We have 30% of Macedonians in Macedonia, 20% in Greece and minorities in Bulgaria and Albania.
It is very important to differ between politics and genetics, we are a genetic institute and we don’t have political aims!!!
All countries in Europe show different roots…We have Arab, Berber, Phoenician, Iberian, Celtic, Germanic and Viking roots in Spain and Italian. Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonian, Croatia, etc, show genetic differences, but these are not as strong as politics tell us the whole time.
Inma Pazos
iGENEA
Tel. +41 (0)43 233 81 51
info@igenea.com
http://www.igenea.com”
“The following is the genetic composition in the following countries (remember there is no such thing as a pure race), and notice how the Slav element is larger in Greece than in Macedonia.
Post from iGENEA to 26.09.2008
“Albania:
30% Illyrians
15% Phoenician
14% Hellenen
18%Thraker
2% Vikings
20% slavs
Greece:
10% Germanic
10%illyrians
20% slavs
20% phoenician
5% macedonian (in north more than 18%)
35% Hellenen
Bulgaria:
49%Thraker
11%macedonian
15%slavs
15%hellenen
5% pheonician
Macedonia:
30%macedonian
10% illyrian
15% hellenen
5%phoenician
20% germanic
5% hunnen
15% slavs
Inma Pazos
iGENEA
Tel. +41 (0)43 233 81 51
info@igenea.com
http://www.igenea.com
Let’s face it, migrations of people do occur and always has throughout history for what ever reason. But the way our history is written suggests that the whole of Macedonia, as well as regions of Thrace, Illyria, Greece and so on, were all overran by the so called Slavic people and thus completely replaced the people originally living there.
To even think in such terms (by some people – unfortunately) is strange to even comprehend. Fair enough, if we are talking about very small regions and extremely small tribes, that can easily be overran. But when we are referring to Slavs overrunning powerful cultures and tribes, and thus land masses encompassing half of Europe and in such a short amount of time, as suggested by the Slav invasion theories (as emphasized by many Greeks and others – for obvious political reasons) it then becomes quite overwhelming, confusing and extraordinary to say the least.”
Kiro Velkovski (presumably a FYROM nationalist) stated “we have only truth behind us. And they have bunch of lies” I thought I’d examine one of Kiro’s alleged “facts”.
“Even until 1989 Macedonia was filthy and forbidden word in Greece.”
This is a perfect example of the historical revisionism FYROM nationalists spread to both to 3rd parties and amongst themselves (to generate hatred against Greeks as “oppressors” not to mention it hypocritically erases the existence of 2.5 million Greek Macedonians who I can assure Kiro exist whether he likes to admit it or not)
Macedonia Greece was given it’s name immediately after the Balkan wars in 1912 (over former Ottoman territories in 1912 NOT “Macedonian” territory as FYROM nationals like to frame it). There are countless references in maps, newspapers, books, churches, schools, etc… that show the use of name Macedonia was in very widespread use in Greece immediately after the Balkan wars. (including plenty of references by third parties outside of Greece)
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,718771,00.html
180 degrees contrary to Kiro’s assertion that Greece forbid the word “Macedonia”… there are literally millions of people in Greece who consider themselves Macedonians in a strong regional sense (that could almost be called national were there not also a bond to Greek culture). There are more self-identifying Macedonians in Greece than there are people in FYROM. (thus one of the reasons for the name dispute)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_%28Greeks%29
The Greeks living in the Macedonia region during Ottoman rule were calling themselves Macedonians in the 19th century (along with the former ethnic Bulgarians of FYROM that have now completely rebranded themselves “ethnic Macedonians” post Yugoslavia).
In the middle ages there was also a Greek speaking Byzantine Thema called Macedonia founded by Irene the Athenian (although it was based in Thrace) The Slavic speaking Bulgarian ancestors of FYROM nationalists actually fought the Greco-Roman Byzantine empire. (aka they tried to eradicate the indigenous Greek-speaking people living there and turn them into Slavs)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28theme%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria#Byzantine_rule_and_rise_of_the_Second_Empire
FYROM nationals today speak a Bulgarian dialect that’s been rebranded “Macedonian”. If they are “true” Macedonians as some now claim and treasure their culture then why don’t they bother to speak a Greek dialect… the language ancient Macedonians spread all the way to India? Would an Icelander change the official language of Iceland into a slavic dialect… or would they treasure the history, language, and culture of Iceland?
The funny thing about Kiro’s claim is that it was FYROM that were the one’s that didn’t end up using the official name of “Macedonia” for their region until communist dictator Tito decided to renamed Vardar Banovina into “The People’s Republic of Macedonia” in 1944 (which helped trigger a civil war in Greece that lead to the deaths of 100K Greeks and the suffering of millions more)
(1038 stamp of Yugoslavia – notice the bottom part)
http://www.helleniccomserve.com/fyromlomis.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vardar_Banovina
In ancient times FYROM was called Paeonia NOT ancient Macedonia. Arguably all of ancient Macedonia is already situated in Greece. Not a single ancient artifact has ever been found by ancient Macedonians claiming to be Slavic. Plenty have been found written in Greek suggesting they identified with Greek culture. Aristotle last I heard was a Greek philosopher not a Slavic one. Macedonians competed in the ancient Olympics of centuries as SELF-IDENTIFYING Greeks. If anyone cares to argue Aristotle spoke a proto-slavic dialect and considered himself Slavic– then we may as well all throw away our history books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians#Participation_in_panhellenic_events
If any of these facts bother FYROM nationalists like Kiro or he’s ashamed of his Bulgarian roots then he’s got a serious insecurity complex. Ancient Greek glories are just that… ancient. Greece is just an average nation among many today. There is absolutely nothing wrong with FYROM being former Bulgarians (or even creating a new ethnic group). Ancient history is written and can’t be revised simply to suit their national narrative nor can Greece’s territorial integrity and security be put in jeopardy for FYROM’s insecurity complex.
I understand why people in other countries call them “Macedonians” (not their problem). Hopefully neutral third parties can see why Greeks can’t risk it with such erratic behavior coming out of FYROM. (e.g. half their country now claims to be direct descendants of “ancient Macedonians… when only 10 years ago their own elected representatives were claiming the exact opposite)
‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’ (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington, – January 22 1999)
‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov – Interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)
Kiro Velkovski (presumably a FYROM nationalist) stated “we have only truth behind us. And they have bunch of lies” I thought I’d examine one of Kiro’s alleged “facts”.
“Even until 1989 Macedonia was filthy and forbidden word in Greece.”
This is a perfect example of the historical revisionism FYROM nationalists spread to both to 3rd parties and amongst themselves (to generate hatred against Greeks as “oppressors” not to mention it hypocritically erases the existence of 2.5 million Greek Macedonians who I can assure Kiro exist whether he likes to admit it or not)
Macedonia Greece was given it’s name immediately after the Balkan wars in 1912 (over former Ottoman territories in 1912 NOT “Macedonian” territory as FYROM nationals like to frame it). There are countless references in maps, newspapers, books, churches, schools, etc… that show the use of name Macedonia was in very widespread use in Greece immediately after the Balkan wars. (including plenty of references by third parties outside of Greece)
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,718771,00.html
180 degrees contrary to Kiro’s assertion that Greece forbid the word “Macedonia”… there are literally millions of people in Greece who consider themselves Macedonians in a strong regional sense (that could almost be called national were there not also a bond to Greek culture). There are more self-identifying Macedonians in Greece than there are people in FYROM. (thus one of the reasons for the name dispute)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_%28Greeks%29
The Greeks living in the Macedonia region during Ottoman rule were calling themselves Macedonians in the 19th century (along with the former ethnic Bulgarians of FYROM that have now completely rebranded themselves “ethnic Macedonians” post Yugoslavia).
In the middle ages there was also a Greek speaking Byzantine Thema called Macedonia founded by Irene the Athenian (although it was based in Thrace) The Slavic speaking Bulgarian ancestors of FYROM nationalists actually fought the Greco-Roman Byzantine empire. (aka they tried to eradicate the indigenous Greek-speaking people living there and turn them into Slavs)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28theme%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria#Byzantine_rule_and_rise_of_the_Second_Empire
FYROM nationals today speak a Bulgarian dialect that’s been rebranded “Macedonian”. If they are “true” Macedonians as some now claim and treasure their culture then why don’t they bother to speak a Greek dialect… the language ancient Macedonians spread all the way to India? Would an Icelander change the official language of Iceland into a slavic dialect… or would they treasure the history, language, and culture of Iceland?
The funny thing about Kiro’s claim is that it was FYROM that were the one’s that didn’t end up using the official name of “Macedonia” for their region until communist dictator Tito decided to renamed Vardar Banovina into “The People’s Republic of Macedonia” in 1944 (which helped trigger a civil war in Greece that lead to the deaths of 100K Greeks and the suffering of millions more)
(1038 stamp of Yugoslavia – notice the bottom part)
http://www.helleniccomserve.com/fyromlomis.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vardar_Banovina
In ancient times FYROM was called Paeonia NOT ancient Macedonia. Arguably all of ancient Macedonia is already situated in Greece. Not a single ancient artifact has ever been found by ancient Macedonians claiming to be Slavic. Plenty have been found written in Greek suggesting they identified with Greek culture. Aristotle last I heard was a Greek philosopher not a Slavic one. Macedonians competed in the ancient Olympics of centuries as SELF-IDENTIFYING Greeks. If anyone cares to argue Aristotle spoke a proto-slavic dialect and considered himself Slavic– then we may as well all throw away our history books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians#Participation_in_panhellenic_events
If any of these facts bother FYROM nationalists like Kiro or he’s ashamed of his Bulgarian roots then he’s got a serious insecurity complex. Ancient Greek glories are just that… ancient. Greece is just an average nation among many today. There is absolutely nothing wrong with FYROM being former Bulgarians (or even creating a new ethnic group). Ancient history is written and can’t be revised simply to suit their “heroic” national narrative nor can Greece’s territorial integrity be put in jeopardy for FYROM’s insecurity complex.
I understand why people in other countries call them “Macedonians” (not their problem). Hopefully neutral third parties can see why Greeks can’t risk it with such erratic behavior coming out of FYROM. (e.g. half their country now claims to be direct descendants of “ancient Macedonians… when only 10 years ago their own elected representatives were claiming the exact opposite)
‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’ (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington, – January 22 1999)
‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov – Interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)
@ana
“That didnt happen only do the Macedonian population, but to the Muslims, to the Jews living,”
Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks and others all got a piece of the old Ottoman empire. Turkey ended up with the biggest chunk. There was a massive population exchanges throughout the Balkans during that period. Where did all the Greeks in Turkey disappear to? Where did the Serbs in Bulgaria go? Where did the Turks in FYROM go? (and lets not forget many of FYROM’s cities had Turkish names that were changed to Slavic)
There are notable exceptions but most nation states tend to have a dominant ethnic group. For example, I believe Iceland has signficantly less immigrants than Greece and it’s ethnically more homogeneous. This contradiction obviously didn’t concern Mr. Einarsson before he hypocritically decided to disrespectfully start attacking someone else’s homeland about minorities. Greeks have never bothered Icelanders one iota. (although I don’t hold all Icelanders responsible because of Mr. Einarsson’s attempt to spread ethnic hatred against Greeks… on behalf of the FYROM government that I’m under the impression is partially funding him)
The Balkan wars could have been the end of story but it seems some of our former Yugoslavian, former Bulgarian friends in FYROM want to start yet another chapter in the Balkan wars. I say this because FYROM unfortunately constantly refer to Macedonia Greece as “occupied” (as I would note several on this thread have done already).
FYROM seems to have difficulty grasping Greece is a sovereign country. Macedonia is a Greek etymology as I recall. Greeks could easily start arguing FYROM is “occupied” if they wanted but that road goes to an unpleasant place. Being “smaller” than Greece doesn’t excuse FYROM’s behavior anymore than WW2 German being smaller than the US does. For instance, Greece is a tiny country itself. Turkey has seven times Greece’s population and FYROM and Turkey are great friends these days. So who is being “bullied” here is most definitely arguable.
FYROM’s problem Ana is they aren’t satisfied with their own territory and their own history as former Bulgarians (like Americans at one time were mostly former citizens of Great Britain). Rather than look forward they want to look into the past. They seemingly don’t want to accept there is such a thing as Greek Macedonians (and that Macedonia Greece has implicitly a Greek connotation not Slavic).
Everyone knows that Greeks consider ancient Macedonia part of their own history (hardly surprising considering they’ve been speaking “the” Greek in an unbroken chain for 3000 years and that most (if not all) of ancient Macedonia is part of Greece’s territory already)
Greeks are of course not “pure” (just one more negative stereotype FYROM spreads about Greeks) However, I have to ask what ethnic group is? Are Jews, a nomadic people, identical genetically and culturally as 3000 years ago? Chinese? Egyptians? Persians? Ethopians? etc..etc.. So why is everyone picking on Greeks all of sudden?
Yet when FYROM refer to Macedonians they seem to want to monopolize the name to include Greek Macedonia. This presents a serious problem for 2.5 million Greek Macedonians (and all Greeks) that would prefer not to be erased from history because Yugoslavia had a civil war and FYROM has an ethnic identity crisis.
I wish no ill will of FYROM but the facts of FYROM’s Bulgarian heritage will not change no matter how long FYROM postpones compromising Ana. Ancient Macedonian artifacts will never rewrite themselves from Greek into FYROM’s Bulgarian dialect. Never. Let me remind you what FYROM’s own ELECTED leaders said not so long ago. Now tell me who’s been playing hurtful mind games again?
“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first ELECTED President – Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4
I’m personally still more interested in confirming whether MINA’s story is true or just made up propaganda in order to garner “EU support” [hey, after all, their Alexandrization and TV-videos about FYROM being the “cradle of the Macedonoid(sic)-white race”(!) can’t have gained them much support so they might as well use, ahem, subtler methods that might appeal to outsiders] than who is right or wrong in the “name dispute”.
That’s just sidestepping the specific issue in favor of each side’s grand narrative which concerns us little *here*.
@one of the Jims:
Well you are spot on, to some of the things i wanted to say, but not completely.
First, it doesn’t matter if anybody in this threat suggested it, or not, but all the same, it is one of the foundations of the whole relation, a whole series of actions. Some of them located, lets not go way back, but look at the exodus dating on the beginning of the century. That didnt happen only do the Macedonian population, but to the Muslims, to the Jews living, in what is now northern Greece(maybe this is the root of the request of Greece to put “religion” on the passports i think, which they have on their IDs i don’t know). And goes all the way to the endless humiliations of Macedonians when going there, to well discrimination isnt too strong a word, to Macedonians(albanians, possibly Turks) who still live there, in terms of speaking the language publicly, or claim their background, most of them are simply afraid to say
it to themselves let alone to others, here is what happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umyfu5caW_M ( Promotion of Greek Macedonian Dictionary Athens). Not to mention this political dispute… if you want to know what i ment kind of, first hand, go to the various forums, comments on youtube, wikipedia article “wars” , and see that we are named Gypsies, Bulgarians(which is not only an offence to us, but to the Roma and to the Bulgarians, cause of the manner it is said)McDonians(refering to the American support we get)
My motivation? In the dispute?! i don’t understand this, frankly…
And… Hate!! ask my greek FRIENDS who know where i stand on this matter, btw, and than come back and say it again, and make it beleivable.
I only had one, not motivation, but aim, and its not in this dispute, but in the comment, here:
That it’s simply unacceptable, to live in a culture where human rights are respected etc etc. to go about and convince me, that what I FEEL I AM, and have always known…It all comes down to the people who live these realites, not the “facts”, which are sometimes so frail… And to go about convince me otherwise is not only deeply offensive it is in many respects aggressive and saddening. That is why i think that so called facts(look at the all the versions of one historical facts, down to the denial of the holocaust) which are thrown in our face are so degrading. And as far as i know, the Greek politic have a tendency to do this, not only with this issue. It perhaps is so with all of it’s neighbours. And i can only see one place where it is coming from(we have seen it from the Serb nationalist, during the 90s).
So you got it all wrong, Jim, it’s not hate you saw, it’s hurt.
Well I was reading this tread and I had to put my two cents worth.
The real Q here is “Why Greece has to get involved in to the private film screening of Islandic Ambasador??”
What somebody does in one’s private house/domain is no ones buisenes.
Now Greece is the Big Brother??
That kind of behaviour just make rest of the world suspicious that Greece has something to hide when it is so paranoid!
And why Greece has to treaten democratic Nation like Island with the EU membership ban/veto?
Democles sword over thir (Islandic) head.
“Do behive or else !!…”
On the other topic of Nationality and the right of the name Macedonia.
Somebody above mentioned that few provences in the Netherlands are “divided” between Netherlands & Belgum but nobody bat an eyelid about the usage of the name.
Coincidently I live in one of it, Limburg, the Duthch part.
Why ONLY Greeks have excluseve right to the name Macedonia and we have to be FYROM, Nothen Macedonia or Upper Macedonia, why shoildn’t be ONLY REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA??
Why should’t Greece also alter the name of their province to Lower Macedonia or South Macedonia, is only fair if we have to have change of our name??!
Surely we have right to ask the same from them?
And since when Greece can claim the ancient history as solely theirs.
Lets remind you about your history, you all forgot that Greece or Ellada Demokratia, DOD NOT existed 3000yrs ago, only City States, like Athens,Sparta, and such.
Ancient city states of anikvity are spread from Lybia and south Italy to Lebanon and from Larisa to the shores of Georgia & Turkey
Greece, the stubborn one, the young one, WAS FOUNDED in 1829 after the battle of Musolongi.
They also were under the Ottmans, for about 400yrs.
Should we call them FORMER OTTOMAN PROVINCE OF GREECE?!
It seems that is the logical concluson, once one’s get independant. If we are FYROM than Greece is FOPOG!
I AM MACEDONIAN, & I’m of slav origing and proud of it.
I am also Europian citisent and NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT to tell me how I should feel and what sould I think,let alone Greece, after all they are Ellada Demokratia and if it is democracy than I have right to selfdetermination.
And I and my fellow countryman & woman choose to be Macedonians, despite the Greeks or any other demands.
So please leave your petty comments at home and join Europe in the 21century.
Ask what Greece done for EU and not what EU have to do (still) for Greece.
If Greece is NATO member, how come I do not see any Greek solders of the battelfields in Avganistan & Iraq?
I know of 300 strong Macedonian contingent in the Green Zone in Baghdad and 200 strong contingent in Khabul, & MKD is NOT member of NATO!!
That should tell you something.
Greek Goverment is strong to bully small Nations, but enough coward NOT to stend up and fight in the heat of the battle zone.
Regards
Val
@Makedonec. As you say, I’m no expert on the Balkans.
In fact, in the little I’ve seen on the FYROM/ROM issue, I’d always assumed that the Greeks were being unnecessarily argumentative over such a small, unimportant point. I nearly said just that after Christos posted.
However, whilst I may not know the details and history behind the Macedonian problem, I am able to read. What I’ve read here shows that the Greeks are absolutely right to be worried that the FYROM, or some elements of it, has designs on territory that is currently Greek. Whether those designs are justified, justifiable or not doesn’t negate that worry.
DENYING ETHNIC IDENTITY – The Macedonians of Greece
This report is based largely on information gathered by a fact-finding mission in the Macedonian region in northern Greece in July 1993, organized and co-ordinated by the Minority Rights Group-Greece.
RECOMMENDATIONS
Human Rights Watch/Helsinki recommends to the government of Greece that it:
* acknowledge the existence in Greece of an ethnic Macedonian minority with its own culture and language;
* end free expression restrictions on ethnic Macedonians;
* permit ethnic Macedonian political refugees to return to Greece to regain their citizenship, to resettle and visit on the same basis as political refugees who identify themselves as Greek;
* end the practice of prohibiting the teaching of the Macedonian language;
* permit ethnic Macedonians to establish cultural and other associations;
* carry out an impartial investigation into whether ethnic Macedonians are currently discriminated against in employment in the
public sector; if that discrimination is found to exist, end it;
* end harassment of ethnic Macedonians in general, and of Macedonian rights monitors in particular.
Human Rights Watch/Helsinki recommends to the United States government that it acknowledge the Greek government’s human rights violations
as presented in this report, and use its best efforts to persuade the Greek government to follow Human Rights Watch/Helsinki’s recommendations.
@Niels
To address some more of your points.
“how on earth can Greece try to blackmail the icelandic government into restricting freedom of speech because it is not satisfied with a cultural activity by an icelandic citizen.”
You have very superficial evidence that this is what actually happened (unless you consider Mina a reliable news source). In addition, lets suppose roles were reversed and some politician in Greece was providing moral support to some group seemingly trying to eradicate the existence of Icelanders. I think it would be fair for some Icelanders voice concerns no? (although not overly so if its only a few individuals)
“The expression FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) is just as ridiculous as calling Greece FOPOG (Former Ottoman Protectorate of Greece).”
More irony you should bring that up. FYROM nationalists great grandfathers during Ottoman rule freely SELF-IDENTIFIED as Bulgarians (“Macedonian” only in a regional not ethnic sense along with many other ethnic groups in the modern greater Macedonia region).
I am not aware of a single regional census that shows the existence of “ethnic Macedonians” until well into 20th century. Plenty of census data exists (from a wide number of sources and using different methodologies) that shows the existence of Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Albanians, Vlachs, Jews, Roma and others) Were all those direct descendants of “ancient Macedonians” hiding when census takers came around?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistical_data
“I can just recommend this place to everybody. It is beautiful, not expensive and the people are really the nicest you are ever likely to meet.”
As long as you are not Macedonian (Greek), Albanian, or Bulgarian. (especially Albanians who are occasionally known to go missing or are killed). Some recent quotes by high ranking Albanian and Bulgarian officials.
“Albanian media quoted Albanian Prime Minister Sali Berisha as saying the encyclopedia was “absurd and unacceptable” and said he warned Macedonian President Georgi Ivanov that no one can build “identity based on the forgery of history.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSLO70445
“On September 24, the Bulgarian embassy in Skopje issued a statement saying that “yet again a publication claiming to be based on science abides by political and propaganda goals”. It adds that it “is unthinkable for a state wanting to join Nato and the EU to use an out-of-date ideology and words from the Cold War era”.
http://www.sofiaecho.com/2009/10/02/792969_encyclopaedic-example
I just like to say I wholeheartedly support the new country of FYROM’s right to self-determination (and to chose whatever name for itself it likes)… with the caveat that their self-determination does not include any attempt to erase existing identities in the nations around them.
If this proviso seem unfair to someone then I would suggest the person who argues against it generously abdicate their own to ethnic identity to FYROM before handing out those of others.
LETTER TO HIS EXCELLENCY
KONSTANDINOS SIMITIS, PRIME MINISTER,
THE HELLENIC REPUBLIC, ATHENS, GREECE,
FROM MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION ON SECURITY
AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE
October 6, 1998
“…Other Greek citizens face severe restrictions on their rights to freedom of cultural expression, violations of their freedom of association, and other forms of harassment and discrimination, including limits on their ability to hold title to their property. Individuals in Florina, for example, were apparently prevented from registering the Macedonian Culture Center while other groups have been forced to remove signs written in the Macedonian language and faced other limits on their cultural rights. Attempts by officials in Greece to restrict or otherwise limit the use of other languages, including Macedonian, are inconsistent with numerous OSCE commitments, including the anti-discrimination language cited above…”
HUMAN RIGHTS IN GREECE:
A SNAPSHOT OF THE CRADLE
OF DEMOCRACY – JUNE 20, 2002 OSCE report
@jim
I’m Jim just like you. Neither of us have an issue with that. (Jim is the finest name in the world we can both agree :) However, were you to claim my property and identity as you own that would be considered fraud and identity theft.
Unfortunately some appear more interested in general mudslinging at Greeks rather than deal with the facts at hand(not saying this is you Jim).
Let me refresh the words of FYROM’s own ELECTED government officials about their own “sacred” ethnic identity not so long ago (try and keep this in mind every time their government tries to insinuate they are direct descendants of ancient Macedonians.)
‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’ (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington, – January 22 1999)
‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov – Interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)
“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President – Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4
@Niels
You said…
“To Alex (moderator), In some comments citizens of the republic of Macedonia are being refered to as ‘Fyromians’ . I think comments like that should not be approved.”
FYROM is a provisional UN recognized name agreed upon by both Greece and FYROM to normalize relations where both nations are present in international situations (part of their 1995 agreement). It is perfectly valid and not an insult despite that some FYROM nationalist might not approve of their own government that signed that document.
If you were in any way or form neutral in the dispute than perhaps you would understand why Macedonians might not want to call people from the neighboring country of FYROM “Macedonians”. (considering FYROM is now claiming to be ancient Macedonians and calling Macedonia Greece “occupied”)
I also find it ironic that you claim to stand for free speech… yet are the first one on this thread to openly try and suppress it.
>That guy is back using my name. Argh. I should have copyrighted my name before IceNews decided to start a holy war between verbose nationalists.
Is this a problem Alex? It is a little disconcerting to think that Niels could appear as Mr Nasty and Fisy as Mr Nice! I had thought that your name was protected on registration……?
Terry,
Geee, sprinkles (hagelslag)…where did you get that from :-)
I thought the practice was totally unknown outside of the Benelux!
Hello Niels
>The word ‘Fyromian’ is insulting., just like it is insulting to call germans ‘krauts’ or french ‘froggs’.
Or Brits – pommies – limeys. Not that I would be in the least offended!
Surely it is for the ‘Fyromians’ to complain, should this term be offensive?
The relaxed moderating of this forum is a key factor in maintaining my interest. An example was the following link.
https://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/11/15/uk-anglicans-ignore-lesbian-archbishop-ordination/#comment-102172
You are perhaps being gentlemanly (as Fisy would describe the Netherlands) – and indeed you are.
However, despite your niceness, I would have to state that the Dutch practise of sprinkles on bread is downright wrong!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprinkles
That guy is back using my name. Argh. I should have copyrighted my name before IceNews decided to start a holy war between verbose nationalists.
@ANA
You state…
“it just sickens me when i hear time and time again, Greeks consider themselves as half-gods, uber-nation, to the rest of the europe”
Nowhere in this thread did anyone remotely suggest such a thing. You are simply revealing your own motivations in the dispute (which seems to be your own hate filled negative stereotypes).
The issue at hand isn’t who’s the greatest ethnic group on earth (a nonsensical argument seeing as we all share DNA and culture). The issue is the details of the name dispute. Greece doesn’t appear to be saying FYROM can’t be an ethnic group (despite that it is framed that way by some). It seems to be saying that FYROM’s new nation cannot pirate off Greece’s history in an attempt to stake territorial claims (especially not for a war over Ottoman spoils that ended over a century ago)
In these sorts of border disputes their are two kinds of people. Those looking to self-righteously lynch someone based on their biases and speculation, and those that examine the facts before passing out judgments.
(e.g. Statues of BMARC, predecessor of IMRO, written by Gotse Delchev another national icon of FYROM)
“Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the BULGARIAN population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.
Chapter II. – Structure and Organization
Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any Bulgarian, independent of gender
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization
To Karla Feltrow and Makedonec,
Indeed , in stead of the name dispute the question is: how on earth can Greece try to blackmail the icelandic governement into restricting freedom of speech because it is not satisfied with a cultural activity by an icelandic citizen.
To Alex (moderator),
In some comments citizens of the republic of Macedonia are being refered to as ‘Fyromians’ . I think comments like that should not be approved.
The word ‘Fyromian’ is insulting., just like it is insulting to call germans ‘krauts’ or french ‘froggs’.
I can remember that you have deleted in the past a comment in which icelanders were compared to monkeys and I think the expression ‘fyromians’ should not be allowed too on this site.
Dont’t you FYROM me!
The expression FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) is just as ridiculous as calling Greece FOPOG (Former Ottoman Protectorate of Greece).
To Bromley,
In fact there has been considerable discussion between governments to change te name of the republic of Macedonia. “Northern Macedonia” or “Vardar Macedonia” have been proposed as possibilties.
PS: I am really Niels and not an imposter. I just would like to say that some years ago I spent a wonderful holiday in Ohrid and I can just recommend this place to everybody. It is beautiful, not expensive and the people are really the nicest you are ever likely to meet.
A name is NOT just a name when someone is using it to make land and historical claims on another nation Makedonec. This is just sophistry pretended to be authentic ethnics. If the name was trivial as some FYROM nationals are dishonestly claiming then why wouldn’t FYROM change its name to improve relations with Greek Macedonians? (which sorry to inform you 2.5 million Macedonians exist in Greece whether your like it or not-as well as millions of other Greeks that consider ancient Macedonia part of their mutual history)
FYROM nationalists like to claim Greeks “oppressed” their grandfathers. They always neglect to mention they, along with some Greeks, were trying to spread a very real communist tyranny (and stay quiet about how many Greeks they murdered and committed atrocities against for their “glorious” communist system. Perhaps Greeks should send roses to the Nazis they fought during WW2 too?
Your government is spreading lie upon lie Makedonec that you (aka former Yugoslavians, aka former Bulgarians that speak a language that used to be considered a dialect of Bulgarian) are direct descendants of ancient Macedonians and that Greece is “occupied” territory. This is not “good neighbourly” relations. You can fool those that have superficial knowledge of the history of the region (but have plenty of opinions built out of ignorance and self-righteousness). You can’t fool the vast majority of accredited historians who know far better.
“We, the undersigned scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, respectfully request that you intervene to clean up some of the historical debris left in southeast Europe by the previous U.S. administration.”
“On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.” This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great.”
http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html
FYROM can’t be called Macedonia because there is already a Macedonia in Greece but the US can have a state called Georgia?
Just to say that my father was born in the Macedonian region that today belongs to our beloved neighoubour Greece. His entire family in the late 1940’s (when he was only 4 yrs. old) was expelled from Greece and forced to resettle first in Poland and than back to Macedonia (at that time Yugoslavia).
I don’t want to go into details of what I’ve been told on the events, anyone can image how it can look to be brutally forced to abandon your century old home and to resettle into a foreign countries, but I can confirm that he even today (more than 60 years later) has great problems even visiting his birthplace. Greece = Birth Place of Democracy?!??!?
Now, any of you dear neighbors and highly educated experts in the Balkan logic (like: Jos, Bromley86, Jim, Niels and like) please tell me that what I am saying is forgery, false, and a lie….
To put it simple, “A name is a name” (hence the title of the “controversial” Icelandic movie) and clearly that’s not the problem here. The problem is repatriation of all expelled natives of the region, giving their land back (which has been generously given to the “true” natives which, by the way, were resettled from remote locations in Greece), and most importantly, restoring their Faith and Pride.
So please don’t speak on the issue as we are trying to steal anything when the truth is completely opposite. Don’t support lies, and more important don’t give justification to something that surely you would not like to happened to any of you or your families, cause simply that HYPOCRISY (i.e. modern Greece).
PS. Knowing the Icelandic people I can only image how astonished they must have been on the Greek reaction. Probably they never dealt with such a barbaric approach. And the world calls them the first democracy in the world – what a non-sense.
PPS: Probably the Greece will impose the need of having good neighbor relations to Iceland as a precondition for (not)supporting their aspirations to join EU. :):):)
How many countries in the world (including Athens) had to prove the connections to the ancients? So why should we do it? Why bother with anything else but the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/ . It does not state that it is good for 7 billion people except for 2 million Macedonians.
I know why – Macedonia was never ruled by Athens before 1913. This idiotic claims are just a way to cover up the occupation (done deal) and the ongoing assimilation. In the smallish part of Aegean Macedonia they moved in almost a million of immigrants after the Greco-Turk wars in 1920s. Yes, that is the name issue – simple cover up of grand scale occupation and assimilation. Check UN archives – until 1930 even the government in Athens call Aegean Macedonia nothing but New Territories and New Greece and OCCUPIED TERRITORIES. Even until 1989 Macedonia was filthy and forbidden word in Greece.
Let’s face it – we have only truth behind us. And they have bunch of lies (with help of the politicians mentioned on this page). And it is MUCH easier to sell a story where you are not bound by the facts but you can lie as much as you like. And Macedonian truth is one and we are bound by the facts and we cannot invent defense and invent marketing plots to fight overfunded Athens’ propaganda.
Bullying tactic will not work indefinitely. Not that we need any proofs, but just to open up the discussion a little – in the movie Pasko Kuzman claims that he found the grave of the most great Macedonian of all the times. And, yes, it is in the Republic of Macedonia.
Maybe that is the reason why the Greeks created this “Icegate” scandal…
Kiro
Skopje, Macedonia
I have talked through the internet with many fyromians and the result is that they are quite confused with their origin. there are some who think that they are the real descendants of alexander the great so they have the right to call themselves macedonias. others believe that they are slavs who came in the region in the 6th century so because they live in macedonia region they have the right to call themselves macedonians. finally there is a part of them which combine the two previous options and believes that they are slavs who mixed with the ancient macedonians and create a hybric nationality. how anyone can take them seriously given the fact that even with each other can decide what they really are.
“Macedonian sources claim that Athens threatened to hinder Iceland’s own EU application procedure”
No doubt the unreliable MINA would *claim* this. Hard facts are hard to come by, though, eh FYROM?
I am Macedonian, and I am a Macedonian.
(“On Nov 20, 2009, Jason Boris Eugine said:
I am Macedonian and I am Greek.”
Then one day, this guys who just broke up from Yugoslavia, mainly of Slavic ethnic origin, rename their country Macedonia..(With the help of Tito) )
it just sickens me when i hear time and time again, Greeks consider themselves as half-gods, uber-nation, to the rest of the europe, let alone “those petty balkan slavs”, and this “argument” alone gives them the right to do, what they always did best. From Demosten on.
I have always been Macedonian, and never known of anything else. My grandparents. Their’s too. Nobody cannot dispute this, nor debate how we feel.
And you can rationalize, and put all sorts of, well, pscychological defense mechanisms to use.
I KNOW what i know.
Although I appreciate the viewpoints on the Greece/ Macedonian dispute, I am still concerned as to why the dispute, and not the question as to the rights of Iceland to film what they please without being blackballed from the European Union, is the most adamant subject in discussion. One has to question the basic integrity of any country that would demand a loyalty test of holding a knife to its art community before admission into its exclusive society. What kind of fearful union would that truly be?
Icelandic director, Norwegian production, movie involving Greece and Macedonia …. well, it reminds me the Italian ‘Erik The Viking’ (1965) shot in Andalusia (Spain) and in Cinecittà (Rome). LoL
LETS PUT SOME FACTS.
1-THE PEOPLE LIVING IN WHAT THEY CALL “FYROM” SPEAK BULGARIAN. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS IN THE WRITING BECAUSE IN 1940 IT WAS CREATED A WRITING IN SERBIAN “LETTERS” OF THE BULGARIAN LANGUAGE OF THE REGION. THIS WAS MADE TO SEPARATE THIS PART OF THE BALKANS FROM BULGARIA.
PEOPLE IN FYROM HAS PRACTICALLY THE SAME LANGUAGE AND CULTURE THAN BULGARIANS.
2-PART, AND NOT ALL THE TERRITORY, THEY CALL FYROM WAS PART OF THE AREA OF MACEDONIA IN ANTIQUITY. IT THAT AREA IT WAS SPOKEN THE GREEK LANGUAGE:
“as everyone knows the entire works of the Macedonian philosopher Aristotle were written in Greek.”
3-MACEDONIANS, AND THE REST OF HELLENIC TRIBES FORMED CITY STATES, THEN THEY JOINED UNDER THEIR COMON LINGUISTIC AND CULTURAL BACKGROUND AND IT BECAME GREECE. GREEK CULTURE WAS SPREAD BY A GREEK MAN FROM THE REGION OF MACEDONIA, ALEXANDER THE GREAT.
4-GREECE, AS ANY OTHER COUNTRY, HAS BEEN ALWAYS DIVIDED IN REGIONS. BUT THEY HAVE HAD THE COMMON CULTURAL GROUND AND LANGUAGE. THE GREEK LANGUAGE.
5-FOR CENTURIES SLAVS AND OTTOMANS GOT INTO THE GREEK TERRITORIES. PART OF ONE OF THOSE TERRITORIES IS INSIDE WHAT THEY CALL FYROM. GREECE HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO RECOVER THOSE TERRITORIES THAT ARE PARTIALLY INSIDE WHAT FYROM IS TODAY. BUT READ THIS:
“Thessaloniki (Greek: ???????????, IPA: [?esalo?niki]), Thessalonica, or Salonica is the second-largest city in Greece and the capital of the Greek region of Macedonia.[2] It is honorarily called the ????????????? Symprotevousa (lit. co-capital) of Greece, as it was once called the ?????????????? symvasilevousa (co-royal capital) of the Byzantine Empire”
THE CAPITAL OF MACEDONIA IS THESSALONIKA. A GREEK NAME, A REGION WHERE GREEK CULTURE HAS BEEN PRESENT SINCE ANCIENT TIMES. THE GREEKS OF THE MACEDONIAN REGION SPOKE, SPEAK AND WILL ALWAYS SPEAK GREEK.
6-IN THE MACEDONIAN TERRITORIES INVADED BY SLAVS THERE IS ONLY A VERY SMALL MINORITY OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE CONTINUED TO SPEAK GREEK FOR CENTURIES.
7-IF CLAIMS ON ANCIENT ORIGINS HAVE COULD BE APPLIED, THEN THOSE TERRITORIES INVADED BY SLAVS SHOULD BE GIVEN BACK TO ITS FORMER GREEK OWNERS. BUT SOMETHING LIKE THAT IS NOT VIABLE BECAUSE BULGARIANS HAVE BEEN THERE FOR OVER A MILENIUM NOW. SO THEY CAN KEEP THAT PORTION OF GREEK TERRITORY THEY TOOK INTO WHAT IS FORMED NOW AS FYROM.
8-REMEMBER: THE COUNTRY OF FYROM IS FORMED BY VARIOUS REGIONS WHERE IN ANCIENT TIMES GREEKS LIVED IN ONE OF THEM CALLED MACEDONIA AND WAS PART OF THE ONLY MACEDONIA THAT HAS EVER EXISTED. A GREEK REGION. OTHER REGIONS WHERE THE HOME OF DIFFERENT TRIBES ( SLAVS TRIBES) THE GREEK CALLED “BARBARIANS” AS THEY DID NOT SHARE THE LANGUAGE AND CULTURE WITH THE REST OF GREEK REGIONS.
9-FYROM IS BULGARIA.
10-IF THE INHABITANTS OF FYROM ( WHO SPEAK BULGARIAN, HAVE BULGARIAN CULTURE AND WHERE SEPARATED FROM BULGARIA SOME TIME AGO) THINK THAT THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH BULGARIA AND NOW CLAIM TO USE THE NAME OF MACEDONIA TO CALL THEIR COUNTRY, ON THE BASIS OF ANCIENT HISTORY. THEN I THINK THAT FYROM INHABITANTS HAVE A CLEAR CRISIS OF IDENTITY. OR IS IT THAT THEY DON´T WANT BULGARIA TO CLAIM BACK WHAT WAS STOLEN ?
I THINK THAT IF FYROM PEOPLE HAD SOME SENSE OF DIGNITY, THEY WOULD NOT DENY THEY ARE BULGARIAN, BECAUSE THEY SPEAK BULGARIAN AND THEIR CULTURE IS JUST THE SAME AS IN WEST BULGARIA.
IT IS A REAL SHAME. I THINK THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN DENY YOUR OWN ORIGINS AND CULTURE. AND THEN GO AND CLAIM THEY HAVE GREEK ORIGINS, LIKE ALEXANDER THE GREAT. WELL WHY DON´T THEY SPEAK GREEK? AND WHY IS THEIR CULTURE A SLAVE ( BULGARIAN) CULTURE AND NOT GREEK CULTURE??
FYROM IS A FAKE STATE. MACEDONIA IS GREEK, HAS BEEN ALWAYS GREEK. HAVE SOME SENSE OF DIGNITY AND RESPECT FOR YOUR OWN CULTURAL ORIGINS AND YOUR BULGARIAN LANGUAGE.
DON´T LET OPPORTUNISTIC POLITICIANS FOOL YOU WITH THE IDEA THAT YOU ARE NOT BULGARIANS, BECAUSE THEY WANT TO KEEP THE CONTROL OF THE TERRITORY.
If Greece can be blamed for wanting solely to use the “trade mark” Macedonia , the same can be said for FYROM. Why can’t it be called “North Macedonia” or “Upper Macedonia”? These names are actually quite accurate, because FYROM “owns” only part of the geographical region Macedonia. The other two big portions are within the borders of Greece and Bulgaria. Small parts belong to Serbia and Albania.
If Bulgarians consider Macedonians of FYROM “west bulgarians” (or more precisely “former bulgarians”) and their language “bulgarian dialect”, the same goes for Macedonians of FYROM with respect to Bulgarians in Bulgarian Macedonia (and also to Greeks in Greek Macedonia): Macedonians of FYROM consider those Bulgarians (respectively Greeks) to be “ethnic Macedonians”, speaking “macedonian language”. In fact Macedonians of FYROM consider the whole region of Macedonia and its slav speaking population “theirs”. Bulgaria and Greece are seen as “occupiers”. So I very much understand why Greece is not so thrilled of FYROM having the name of a whole geographic region. I personally think that compromised solution will be reached soon. “North Macedonia”, “Upper Macedonia” – something like this.
By the way here is some educational info for some of you:
The official web site of the president of FYROM states clearly that these people came to Macedonia at the end 10th century:
“The beginnings of the statehood of the Macedonian Slaves go back to the end of the 10th century and beginning of the 11t, with the creation of Samoil’s state.”
Link: http://www.president.gov.mk/eng/makedonija.htm
Also the first president of FYROM president Mr. Kiro Gligorov confirmed twice that they are not related to the ancient Macedonians:
“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians.”
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
“We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That’s who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (A.D).”
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)
On 22 January 1999, Ambassador of the FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. In answering questions at the end of her speech Mrs. Acevshka said: “We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great … Greece is Macedonia’s second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz.”
On 24 February 1999, in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM’S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, “We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.” He also commented, “There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country”.
The following questions are obvious:
Why do they call themselves “Macedonians” and their language “Macedonian”?
Why do they use ancient Macedonian symbols if they don’t belong to them?
And if about 25% of their land is part of the original Macedonia state. How can they claim they have a right to the name?The rest of FYROM belonged to ancient Dardania and the ancient Dardanians were enemies of the ancient Macedonians.
It would be like Reykjavik deciding to call its self Copenhagen.
“And two long posts are from another Jim – an imposter who seems almost as articulate as me…”
LOL!!
WHERE’S THE ANGRY MOB?
LINCH THE FAKE OUT!!
I believe that Einarsson was funded in part by the FYROM government to make the film (but I’m not 100% sure so its best validated). The “withMacedonia” website has a donations link to a bank account registered in FYROM. (aka a front)
Contrary to the attempts by some to portray Greeks as trying to “ban” the film, the appropriate word would be “protest”. My bet is most Greeks wholehearted support Mr. Einarsson’s right to make films.
Likewise however they also support their right to call out the clear bias in his film. He seemingly had no interest in discussing the Bulgarian roots of FYROM, no interest in discussing the identity of 2.5 million Macedonian in Greece, no interest in discussing why FYROM’s own elected representatives have given conflicting narratives of their own ethnic identity in the last 10 years alone.
Simply calling oneself an “artist” doesn’t make some one an expert in history, law and ethnics. Plenty of artists through history laid the moral justification for all sort of human atrocities under the banner of “justice” (many artists commissioned by the SS were quite talented). Applying the word “art” to something isn’t a moral get out of jail card for the contents.
IMO the right to self-identification does not include identity theft nor epic intentional historical fraud. Here is what hundreds of qualified historians (from all around the world and some of the finest institutions) have to say about the current FYROM government’s direct descendants of ancient Macedonians national narrative.
“Dear President Obama,
We, the undersigned scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, respectfully request that you intervene to clean up some of the historical debris left in southeast Europe by the previous
U.S. administration.
On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.” This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great.”
http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html
Dear sir’s i am greek macedonian and i live in thessaloniki Greece , we the greek we are proud for one thing our history ,
democary does not mean that we will accept any kind of nazi hitler gebels like propaganda and lies to stain our history globaly we will fight for our right and will stop the bulagians slavs in skopia to insult our history .
People in vardaska are 30% albanians 20%slave serbs 40% bulagarians and rest gipsies and greek refugies from ww2 .
Komunism has left stalin like propaganda they need our history to create a country that nomaly should never excist .
We the greek we are determine to fight for our proud encestors and their blood they give for this greek land.
We the greeks been fight enemies all our histroy will never step back our right to defend our history we will fight the slavs to the end
pete
>What I say is that if they can pressure the EU with this behaviour, then the EU is defunct and Iceland shouldn’t bother with it.
Have no fear Icelander have already figure that out for them selves.
>And then Fisy regresses just to have a go at the EU. Bravo! :)
My last post https://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/11/20/greek-macedonian-spat-splatters-iceland/comment-page-1/#comment-102383 I did post before you nice commenting.
I am making point about trade mark claims.
If Macedonian leaders are using this as excuse for agression against Greeks then they deserve to get the repelled at their border. But that is not clearly their aim from reading about it.
The author of this article needs to check himself.
Firstly its not Athenians who are opposing …its Greeks. And calling them Pesky for reacting to a national matter is simply stupid. I find it as stupid as Browns action to indicate Icelanders as terrorists.
Secondly for those who claim its just a name…well why wont they accept being called Former Yougoslvic Republic of Macedonia? Isnt that a name?
Obviously the restriction on the film may be a bit dramatic…..but when people do not know or better still have no knowledge of the history sourounding this matter they should keep their mouth shut.
It funny that all surounding countries of FYROM do not support them yet people from the other end of the world have a need to support them.
Even their prime minister Kiro Gligorov admited that they are slavs and they don’t have any connection with Alexander the Great. Dont believe me? check it on youtube!
And one advice to some of you…if you dont know the facts dont argue…you will lose the arguement!
Most people in Bulgaria have more difficulties understanding some Bulgarian dialects that the Macedonian “language” itself. How many Greeks can say that? Let’s think together.
@Fisy
You state…
“But they need to accept that the Macedonians want to call them selves that. They do not have right to claim trade mark status”
You are fabricating “rights” that don’t exist/ In the real world state symbols are supposed to be protected under international law to prevent these exact sorts of things from happening (e.g. the Vergina Sun is protected under Wipo-which FYROM nationals ignore).
The FYROM government on the other hand is using Greek state symbols left right and center. It’s not so much that they use the symbols that’s the problem (e.g. Greeks don’t care if the US or Iceland uses them), it’s FYROM’s very obvious attempt to monopolize their use to lay stakes on Greek Macedonian territory and history which is the problem here. (to proclaim former Bulgarians as the one “true” Macedonians… whereas the Greek Macedonians that actually bother to actually speak Greek are the “fake ones”? (that actually live in ancient Macedonia not ancient Paeonia which is where FYROM is primarily situated).
In all honesty I think prejudice towards Greeks is a serious problem if people can’t see that’s what FYROM are trying to do. All they have to say clearly is they aren’t related to ancient Macedonians. Instead they keep playing these words games, constantly demonize their neighbours, and keep incrementally adjusting their historical narrative to lay deeper and deeper stakes into neighboring states.
@Niels
Sure is easy to be self-righteous from way over there. Not your neck or ethnic identity on the line.
All your points about how Albania, Greece, Bulgarians, (and some Serbs) are to some degree hostile towards FYROM are true. Did it ever occur to you it might be because they might know the history of the region far better than you-and that they might have a point? Just because a nation is smaller doesn’t mean it has a right to harass neighboring countries (e.g. every nation the US has ever fought was smaller than it. The Soviet Union which was bigger, it did not fight).
Please let’s not forget FYROM had Yugoslavian passports not so long ago and speak a Slavic dialect ok? A nation is more than borders there are some cultural memes to it as well. How would you like it some new country started claiming the native language of Iceland is Punjabi? Start claiming portions of your country as ‘occupied”. Labeled you as “persecutors” at every corner for defending your own ethnicity?
Would it be “prejudice” for you to object… or would those trying to eradicate your existence be the prejudiced ones? It’s not Greece’s fault they decided to put all their jellybeans into calling their new country “Macedonia”. They went looking for a fight (or at least a continuation of their cold war and prior Balkan wars for Ottoman territories).
Greece didn’t want any use of Macedonia in the name but its come half way with a qualifier to compromise. If FYROM can’t come the rest of the way then they have no long term interest in respecting the human rights of 2.5 million Greek Macedonians. (and Greeks in general).
Macedonia is a geographical region which extends “beyond one sovereignty”, that is Greece, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Bulgaria and Albania all include different parts of geographic Macedonia in their own sovereign territories.
The problem arises because one country, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, insists on monopolizing the name of this particular geographic region as the name of its own state and nation, although a) the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s sovereignty extends only in part (35%) over this region and b) another state, Greece, which includes 55% of geographic Macedonia in its sovereign territory, uses the same name. Not surprisingly, this name constitutes the foremost element for the self definition of the Greek population (2,5 million people) in Macedonia, yet with a completely different content than that in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
According FYROM history main-stream line, the Makedonski’s are not Slavs, are proto-Balkans autochthones when all the other people are settlers (included and the Greeks). Jose Lindgren Alves, a UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination Expert serving as country Rapporteur for the report of Greece on the question of the so-called “Slavic Macedonians”, he wondered if it would change something if this community would recognise its “Slavic Macedonian” culture.
From this perspective, the use of the name Macedonia by the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, without any further clarification or definition, is totally misleading, because it directs to the erroneous identification of millions of citizens of one state (Greece) with that of the citizens of a neighboring state (the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), who have a totally different perception of themselves, their culture, their ethnic identity and language.
It is more than obvious that a same term for two completely different cases, provokes only confusion on every level and in every sector (semantic, symbolic, geographic, ethnological, linguistic, etc.), with consequences which, in any case, are negative, dangerous and totally unnecessary for all sides concerned.
Greece does not claim exclusive rights on the geographical region of Macedonia, but is opposed to efforts of falsification of history, resulting in monopolizing a certain culture and heritage.
Greece had said that the “Slavic Macedonians” should have used a qualifier to clarify their origin. Why were they constantly using the name Macedonian, which already identified 2.5 million Macedonians in the cultural sense? Even the former leaders of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia had admitted that they were of Slavic origin. This question had only come up in the last years. Everyone in the Balkans knew very well what minorities there were in the Balkans, as the question of minorities in the Balkans had created so many tensions in the region. This was the very first time that they had heard of a “Macedonian” group in this region. It was a question of dignity of the name “Macedonian”.
This difference had created a tension with the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and even the United Nations Security Council had said that there was a difference in the name. This situation had to be solved. In Security Council resolution 1845, the Council had asked the two parties to settle the question under the auspices of the United Nations.
This clearly showed that what was in a name had several historical and political implications. It was not a question of a specific denial but the risk of creating tension among identities in the Balkans.
In order to resolve the dispute, one has to approach constructively those “existential” elements, which are of particular concern to both parties. It is evident that the dispute is not simply the state name of Greece’s neighbour, it is what is conveyed through it. Skopje – and third parties offering their services for a compromise solution – need to understand that the geographical region of Macedonia, which includes the entire region of “Greek Macedonia”, is not and cannot be considered the “tatkovina” (fatherland) of the Makedonski people living in FYROM.
Slavic Macedonians (Makedonskis) must accept:
-the Cultural Identity of the Greek Macedonians (Makedones)
-theirs Slavic Cultural Identity
@Niels
a. I am not “posing” as Jim. That’s my actual name. It’s ironic that you should say that because FYROM nationalists are the ones that seem to using the same name to pose as “ancient Macedonians” (by trying to monopolize the name for the entire region where different kinds of Macedonians exist).
b. Several resolutions by the United Nations general assembly, statements by the President Truman, and mass media coverage by reputable 3rd party news organization at the time is “cheap tricks”? Here I thought that was presenting relevant facts (as opposed to playing violins in some movie to try and manipulate someone into supporting the cause aujourd’hui).
Frankly, it sounds more like you are pushing your own agenda largely based on a priori highly suspect moral arguments. Those “poor Macedonians” seem to be trying to lay claim to the history, identity, and land of millions of people (in Greece, Albania and Bulgaria which they also call “occupied”) That’s just begging for an ethnic war.
If Mr. Einarsson had any concern for accurate reporting in his film perhaps he should have including quotes from FYROM’s own national icons on their own identity (seemingly forgotten by him)
Here is an excerpt from the statute of BMARC, predecessor of IMRO, 1896. It was written originally in what was considered Bulgarian co-authored by Gotse Delchev.
Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the BULGARIAN population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.
Chapter II. – Structure and Organization
Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any BULGARIAN, independent of gender
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization
“Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians”
(Krste Misirkov, FYROM national icon, in ‘On Macedonian Matters’)
http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm
Now they are claiming to be direct descendants of ancient Macedonians (building a giant statue to Alexander the Great) and Greece “occupied”? Houston we have a problem. If their new country needs to build an identity by erasing the identity of existing countries… it’s their government that has the problem.
There is a province called Brabant which is divided in a dutch and a belgian part.The belgian part is even divided between dutch and french speakers.
Another province, Limburg, has also been divided between both countries. Nobody has a problem with that and there are no fears of territorial claims or persecutions.
One should not create problems which are not there.
I’m not from the southern part of Europe but the dispute between Macedonian and Greece have interest me. If I recall right the Ottman Empire was occupying the region Macedonian for several hundreds of years, when the Trukish left the region Macedonian were for a few years a own nation before, Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia took one part each. When Juguslavia fell a part one third of the region Macedonia was free again. In this region there have for generation after generation been living Macedonians. Therefore there are Macedonians in Bulgaria and in Greece, however Greece claims that they do not have any minorities, except turks. Finally, after 700 years of beeing occupied, (The Ottman Empire conquered this region betwwn 1300-1359) one part is free. And therefore the country’s name should be Macedonia, even if not all the region is united yet.
I do not understand why Greece can not accept the name Macedonia and let Macedonia enter EU. EU vision is to be border free, today’s Schengen agreement. When Macedonia enter EU and the borders will be erased the Macedonian region, including Greece and Bulgaria will be united!
Another thought: Why doesn’t Bulgaria have a problem with the name???
I also now that the Macedonian have their own language, their own muscial rythm and dances. Language are slavic (and to be a slav only means that you are speaking a type of language and not your genes!) but the musical rythm can not be found anywhere else in Europe. They are a distinct people, and not related to the greek.
Please see this article made by a researcher in Spain
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=10
This is the conclusion for you who do not have the time to click on the link
(Copy pasted)
1) Macedonians belong to the “older” Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the “older” Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
So if Macedonians are more likely to be from this region than Greeks why can’t they be allowed to have a country called the same????
I vote for Macedonia and Macedonian people!
Greece, please stop to harass Macedonian, minorities and Iceland!
Just to bring more substance to the fact high ranking FYROM government officials can’t even agree amongst themselves (about their own identity), their former (elected) PM Ljubco Georgievski now holds a Bulgarian passport. He condemns the behavior of the current government.
“To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ”
http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI
(the best-est Jim of them all :)
@Tom
With all due respect Tom, Greece’s army is located in Greece not “marching around Europe”.It’s not Greece making claims on the Former Yugoslav Republic. Officially FYROM says they have no territorial aspirations but in practice everywhere you go you’ve find FYROM nationals talk in variations of “United Macedonia” (claiming Macedonia Greece is “occupied”)
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=united+macedonia&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=
Current PM of FYROM laying a wreath in front of map of “United Macedonia” (which includes 1/3 of Greek territory annexed)
http://www.historyofmakedonia.com/?page_id=50
“United Macedonians” of Canada mission statement
“Promote the good name of all Macedonians, by promoting the fact that the name Macedonia CAN ONLY BE SYNONYMOUS with the people who are nationally determined as Macedonians;”
http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/about_us.html
That sure doesn’t sound like “good neighborly” relations to me. That sounds like an open call to eradicate the existence of 2.5 million Greek Macedonians in Greece (plus the millions of other Greeks that consider ancient Macedonia part of our national history). The whole foundation of their new country depends on trying to eradicate the existence of Greeks. (since they choose the name Macedonia)
The knee-jerk reaction might be to take the side of an Icelandic artist. While I think the people of Iceland are amongst the best in the world, it doesn’t mean every last person in it knows what they are talking about. Einarsson’s film is way way off base and suffers from a serious case of selective reporting of the facts.
In China there is a region called Inner Mongolia, just south of the independent Mongolia. In Africa there are even two countries that have the same name (Congo). Nobody has a problem with that, so let the Greeks stop creating problems to their neighbours once and for all. The way Greece has treated its own Macedonians in the 20th century is such that it has no lessons to give in terms of Macedonian identity.
To the imposter who posed as Jim:
The fact that you are using such cheap tricks just shows that you do not have strong arguments.
Poor Macedonians, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
One neighbour (Greece) does not want to allow them to use their own chosen name.
Another neigbour (Bulgaria) does not regard macedonians as a seperate nation with its own language, calling them ‘western bulgarians’ instead.
And a third neighbour (Albania) tries to encourage the large albanian minority in Macedonia not to accept macedonian autority and strive for a greater Albania.
So, were macadamia nuts orignally from Greece or Macadamia?
Frankly, taking the whole dispute out of the picture, this was a blatant overstepping of authority by the Greeks. What they are doing is trying to CENSOR art in another country not their own, and using immoral and unethical political tactics to support it.
One of the foundations of a free and democratic world is the freedom of speech and expression. The Greeks cannot march around Europe and decide what people think and say or don’t think and say. What I say is that if they can pressure the EU with this behaviour, then the EU is defunct and Iceland shouldn’t bother with it.
>” Then, they start saying they have roots to ancient Macedonia, that Alexander(the great) is their ancestor, (so is Tzar Samuil, a Bulgarian they claim is ‘Macedonian to..)
That Greece is a fake, and are really from Africa,
with no connection to Greeks whatsoever.. ”
It is same with ” Egyptians ” in Kosovo. They are Roma, who decided to call them selve Eghypticans at some point in past instead.
The Greeks may being over sensitive about this. But as usual in Balkans it is leaders fermenting trouble to get they power over populace.
This does seem sound about right:
“This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
I haven’t seen the film by Sigurjón Einarsson yet :
http://www.anameisaname.net/
but it is backed by this people http://withmacedonia.org/
Wow. We’ve had a lot of posts that have developed the situation from the initial gut reaction of “why shouldn’t they name themselves Macedonians” to a more balanced appreciation of the political realities.
And then Fisy regresses just to have a go at the EU. Bravo! :)
The short posts on this thread are from the original Jim, ie me. And two long posts are from another Jim – an imposter who seems almost as articulate as me…
>Macedonian sources claim that Athens threatened to hinder Iceland’s own EU application procedure if Hannesson decided to show the movie
Greeks have good reason not to like the Turks.
But they need to accept that the Macedonians want to call them selves that. They do not have right to claim trade mark status.
But of course this is the way it is in EU where certain regions do protect the naming of products and restrict naming of products outside those region.
Try labelling your wine as Bordeaux, Burgundy and Chablis type wine if it not from those region of France and wait for EU Office of Harmonization of the Internal Market come and crush you .
( Greeks are probably looking to the trade mark on olympics.
Just try and call something the + Something + Olympics and wait a few moments before the International Olympic committe does come down on you as if a thunder bolt from the heavens .)
@Jos – The British Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, should write to all English-speaking countries and inform them that, from now on, only English citizens are allowed to speak English without restriction. Citizens of other countries (such as America, Canada, Australia, Scotland, Wales, etc) could pay a royalty fee to use English words under non-exclusive licence agreements. Up to 3000 English words per day for £200 per year. Substantial discounts for authors.
This is what happens when you take a propaganda source seriously.
Quoting MINA on anything is a bit like talking to your dog.
I am Macedonian and I am Greek.
Then one day, this guys who just broke up from Yugoslavia, mainly of Slavic ethnic origin, rename their country Macedonia..(With the help of Tito)
So far so good..
Then, they start saying they have roots to ancient Macedonia, that Alexander(the great) is their ancestor, (so is Tzar Samuil, a Bulgarian they claim is ‘Macedonian to..)
That Greece is a fake, and are really from Africa,
with no connection to Greeks whatsoever..
Then they start renaming airports, football stadiums, roads and highways after Greek and Bulgarian heroes..
Then, they say that Greece occupies Macedonian land.
They make songs called,’Hey Greek Murderers’,
they call on the right of self determination..
The jokes are over.. Propaganda wont work any more.
The world has seen what the FYROMians are up to.
Country after country, support is fading..
Wake up and smell the coffee..
Make your own history!..
Is t any wonder Serbia, Albania, Bulgaria, besides Greece, is accusing the FYROMians of the same crime???
Why don’t they accept a Geographical qualifier??
What do they have to lose?????
Who is the aggressor???????????????????
VETO until some common sense is rises up in FYROM.
Greece has occupied Macedonia since 1913. This is the only true.
@Cyril
Your claim “ethnic cleansing” aren’t actually backed up by facts of the period. The US government flatly denied the existence of “ethnic Macedonians” during that period. It only recognized your country as “Republic of Macedonia” after it sent troops in Iraq in 2004. (and Greece didn’t)
“This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
(U.S Secretary of State – Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
The US general assembly passed 4 resolution condemning the actions of Slavic and Greek communists that kidnapped thousands of Greek children (whom you are now trying to pawn of as “victims”)
(UN General Assembly Resolution 193, 1948)
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/3/ares3.htm
(UN General Assembly Resolution 288, 1949)
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/4/ares4.htm
(UN General Assembly Resolution 382 (V Section C), 1950)
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/5/ares5.htm
(UN General Assembly Resolution 618, 1952)- labeled ‘Repatriation of GREEK children”)
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/7/ares7.htm
US President Truman condemned the human atrocities your grandfathers committed.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=13766&st=GREEK+CHILDREN&st1=
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=13636&st=GREEK+CHILDREN&st1=
Major media outlets at the time also condemned the atrocities.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,811653-2,00.html
Unfortunately Greece has done a poor job articulating this. To make matters worse a couple of NGOs and bleeding hearts prematurely bought into FYROM’s narrative (backing themselves into a corner by seemingly defending the historical narrative of Stalin and company.)
I don’t think Greeks are trying to ban films. They are trying to bring attention to a very serious issue that for some strange reason is constantly dismissed as trivial. Anyone with detailed knowledge of the Balkans would know five wars have been fought in the modern region of Macedonia in the last hundred years (that has been populated by several distinct ethnic groups. Modern “Macedonians” being mostly rebranded former 19th century Bulgarians.
“We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians? (Krste Misirkov, FYROM national icon, in ‘On Macedonian Matters’)
http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm
The former Yugoslav Republic seems to be trying to monopolize the “Macedonia” name for the entire region because of its identity crisis. This threatens to engulf the entire Baltic region in a similar identity crisis and possible war. Unfortunately any support of FYROM under just “Macedonia” they seem to interpret as they are “direct descendants of ancient Macedonians”. This is a slap in the face not only to Greek Macedonians but also to Bulgarians (who would both lose their ethnic identity in order for FYROM to forge a path to antiquity)
Normally the Iceland government is thoughtful in its actions but in this instance it has been decidedly insensitive. Every time Icelanders hear some FYROM government official hint at being an “ancient Macedonian” try and remember what FYROM’s own elected government officials claimed only 10 years ago.
“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President – Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4
“Muslims wanted to ban Danish cartoons and now the Greek government wants to ban Icelandic films. Rather than the Greeks making life difficult for Icelandic EU membership, the EU should penalise Greece for attempting to restrict free speech. NATO could target the Acropolis!”
“Free Speech” – what a joke, there is no such thing. You are very limited by what you can say. The whole Danish cartoons spat was nothing more than an attack on a religion for vindictive reasons. American and Briton didn’t fall for the right wing propaganda about freedom of speech – it was an unnecessary, illegal and unjustified insult and banned as a consequence.
Ah, but Cyril, it’s quite clear that you believe that citizens of one country have claim to territory within another. Whether you believe that that territory should remain with Greece or not is not entirely clear, but I’ll wager that there are a number of people who don’t.
So I see precisely why Greece “doesn’t like Macedonia’s name”. Because in just that one post of yours you’ve started with a position that most people here can probably agree with and laid the foundations for the claim that Christos is concerned about.
Given that your country (I assume you’re from FYROM/ROM) is roughly the northern part of ancient Macedonia, do you have a problem with being called Republic of North Macedonia, or just North Macedonia?
Greece is the bully of the Balkans. Its xenophobia has stalled Macedonia and Turkey (with more than 60 million inhabitants) from being members of the European Union. And to think that the ancient Hellenes invented democracy..What a joke.
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I think that no nation can claim for themselves a geographic name that belongs to other nations as well, and make a “national” identity name out of it.
I agree that the Balkans have their own logic. But there is a comon denominator: the more a nation is small, the more they try to survive inventing an imaginary and glorious past.
Unlike the previous commentator, I will not speak about ancient history.
I will speak about today’s Europe and a Europe a few decades ago.
Let me first of all address today:
A country (Greece) is not allowing another country (Macedonia) to join the EU and NATO, because it doesn’t like Macedonia’s name!?
And this is tolerated by “democratic Europe”?!
The same Europe that “exports democracy” all the way to Afghanistan?! How on Earth is this possible today?! Hypocrisy is what it is!!!
And let me tell you about a few decades ago:
The greek government (under their dictator Metaxas) in the 1950’s did an ETHNIC CLEANSING of the macedonian people that lived in Greece! They have murdered, raped, tortured and expelled tens of thousands of Macedonians from the land of their fathers and gave the land to greeks. Now, the greek government (even TODAY) doesn’t want to return the land to it’s rightful owners!!! They don’t let the macedonians even visit the land of their fathers and grandfathers! And this is the REAL ISSUE. It’s not about the name, the nationality or anything else. It’s all about the fact the Greece stole something and doesn’t want to give it back! It’s a precedent and a dangerous one, which I don’t think that the people of Europe should tolerate.
Thanks for the attention.
Muslims wanted to ban Danish cartoons and now the Greek government wants to ban Icelandic films. Rather than the Greeks making life difficult for Icelandic EU membership, the EU should penalise Greece for attempting to restrict free speech. NATO could target the Acropolis!
Dear sir,
Before any statements are made re: “Macedonian Nation”, one should check the basic facts: the inhabitants of the southernmost region of former Yugoslavia are “Slavs” who settled in the region between the 6th and 9th century AD – some 900 to 1,200 years AFTER Alexander’s Macedonia.
The reason “why” should anybody want to usurp a national identity that has nothing to do with theirs can probably be explained by looking at a map: there are only 70km separating a “name” from a “claim” from “access to the sea” and the “Pandora’s Box” the aforementioned equation leads to.
Relations between Balkan nations, and the nature of their disputes, may not be fully evident to others. But, we, Greeks have been living in the region long enough to understand how small things can and will escalate to big things, IN TIME.
Thanks for your attention,
Christos Alex. Giotis