The Icelandic government intends to try to negotiate a new Icesave deal with the UK and the Netherlands in the face of concern it will lose the public referendum on the current deal, according to non-Icelandic media sources.
Reuters reports that the Icelandic authorities expect to lose the vote and hope to head off any repercussions by having the contract back at the negotiating table before the referendum goes ahead.
According to Reuters, a source in the British Treasury said that the UK government is still working closely with Iceland to resolve the issue. “We expect Iceland to stand by its commitments,” the source said.
Meanwhile, Prime Minister Johanna Sigurdardottir and Finance Minister Steingrimur J. Sigfusson have told Icelandic media only that preparations for the referendum are already underway and that any ideas of new contract negotiations would have to have the blessing of British and Dutch authorities before going ahead.
Shows how trustworthy the Iceland government is! Just some days ago, they declared they stand by the settlement. Now, this leak shows they want to reopen the negotiations. Looks like they’re talking out of both sides of their mouth, saying one thing to the international media while planning something different to make their constituents happy. And those crooks should be allowed into the EU? Don’t we already have our fair share of lying politicians and white collar criminals? We really don’t need those even more of those, from Viceland! Let’s press our governments into vetoing any EU membership of Iceland.
This government isnt trustworthy,they are trying to push a deal through (to suit the brits and Dutch)that will saddle my 5 year old son with thousands of Euros of debts for the next 20 years.
As a taxpayer in Niceland i REFUSE to take the responsability of the few wealthy bankers and buisnessmenn(who i still see driving around in their luxary jeeps with smiles on their faces).
I dont think this current coalition government will be in power much longer,the problem is though there isnt any credible party in Niceland today.
Gray, Germany, you are right Iceland shouid be vetoed and struck off the E.E.A agreement.
“We expect Iceland to stand by its commitments,”
What commitments? Did Iceland ever commit to paying the debts of a failed private bank? I hope not, because they didn’t have to…
Grey said
“Let’s press our governments into vetoing any EU membership of Iceland”
You can try, but you dont really live in a democracy, so you will end up doing what you are told, the EU makes all desicions regardless of what you think,
Iceland will never join the EU, or accept the icesave deal, that is quite obvius, to try to supress or attack Iceland will only increase resitance.
http://www.wikileaks.org/
watch the video, Wikileaks may be coming to Iceland,
the biggest problems you have are in your own country, not in Iceland
part 2/7 min 4.40 about EUISS is interesting and is related to the situation we have in Iceland because of our natural resources.
Yeah trust me, Iceland don´t need or want to enter a so called “union” (yeah i am laughing) that kicks a country while already lying down and then expects them to be best pals. What you see going on in Iceland is two things that the EU has lost long ago, it is called sanity and democracy….. take extra note on sanity.
You guys have clearly lost all sanity when you expect a country to pay 300% BNP, a nation of around 320.000 people? have you completely lost you mind?. No the UK and NL needs to look at them selves, they need to pay up 50% of the debt and Iceland the other 50%. Your systems failed utterly by allowing a few icelanders to oversee the icesave accounts…. how stupid can you get really?.
Nobody but a few people really cares about the EU because you have nothing to offer but colonial thinking from the bigger counties as the UK, who can´t really get out of their old colonial habbits. Th EU is joke everywhere else than…… well the EU :O)
Jamie
Why should our entry be vetoed and why should we be struck off the E.E.A agreement?
To Gray, Germany:
>>>>Shows how trustworthy the Iceland government is! Just some days ago, they declared they stand by the settlement.
The Icelandic government has been the biggest friend in Iceland, the UK and Netherlands have had throughout this dispute. Almost no one else in Iceland is trying to defend this agreement, where it remains extremely unpopular. It is therefore rather unfair to blame the Icelandic government in particular, if they are still trying to work through this difficult political situation.
If the current Icesave agreement is voted down in the national referendum, it does not matter anymore whether the Icelandic government stands by it, as the laws backing it are then null and void.
If you read the actual comments made, you will probably notice, that while the Icelandic government says they stand by the current agreement, other people from Iceland only say are committed to honoring Iceland’s ‘obligations’. There is a subtle difference between what the two camps are really committed to.
UK/Netherlands will receive approximately 6.4B Euros from the Landsbanki bankruptcy proceedings, no matter what will happen in the referendum. This is more than enough, to cover the 4.0B Euros Icesave obligation.
If UK/Netherlands want to be paid anything more than the 6.4B Euros from Landsbanki, they will have to negotiate a new agreement with Iceland, that is fair and equitable, so it actually has some realistic chance to be passed as laws.
Terrible isn’t it. Bunch of crooks in Iceland (bankers and politicians) all preventing any justice for their thieveries. Tony Blair and Co. escaping being held to account for his illegal war.
Given your referendum powers in Iceland can you not somehow push through a vote to allow all you good and decent people (normal citizens of Iceland) to demand impeachments and thorough independent investigations of all the raiders and their political pals and confiscate as much of their ill-gotten wealth as possible. Wish we could do the same to Gordon Brown and Darling.
PAY UP YOUR DEBT ICELAND ASK CHINA FOR FINANCIAL HELP AFTER THE CHINESE HAS THE BIGGEST EMBASSY IN REYKJAVIK THE CHINESE HAS A LOT OF INITIATIVE TO OFFER YOU HELP OUT THE ICESAVE SAGA LIKE LOANS AN D ECONOMIC COOPERATION YOU HAS TO GIVE UP SOMETHING INOTHER TO GAIN SOMETHING ICELAN HAS TO TRY TO LIVE LIKE A DEVELOP COUNTRY STATUS SHOLLOW YOUR PRIDE THER IS NOTHING WRONG ABOUT THAT LOOK AT THE ECONOMIC OF EAST ASIA DO NOT LOOK AT THE EEC ECONOMIC MODEL ITS A ONE WAY TICKET TO HELL.BELIEVE ME I HAS LIVE IN ICELAND AND EAST ASIA TO MKE COMPARATION NO MORE VIKING PRIDE ITS HISTORY FACE THE REAL FACT AND TRY TO PAY YOUR BILLS DO NOT BLAME OTHER NATIONS OF YOUR DISASTROUS MISTAKE
But is wasn’t just a few wealthy bankers – it was also pretty much the whole governing (and regulating) class and a large number of Icelanders also gained a great deal too – either directly through being employed by the banks their related businesses or indirectly through the remarkable growth in Iceland’s economy, taxation revenue and the infrastructure benefits. The whole place changed dramatically in the last ten years.
No 5 year old should be saddled with debts but I do think responsibility goes a bit further than a few bankers or the nasty Brits and Dutch (like the nasty ones who gave money to hospices and other charities that was completely lost when Icesave collapsed – no compensation whatsoever from anyone).
Here is Grimsson in 2005 in London boasting about the Icelandic economic miracle: ‘How has it been possible to achieve such success in so many different fields and in such a short time, in areas where we had no prior competitive advantage? … We are succeeding because we are different, and our track record should inspire the buisiness establishment in other countries to reexamine their previous beliefs and the norms that they think will guarantee results.’
“As a taxpayer in Niceland”
Please dont overrate with the nice!!
It’s not just about Icesave – Iceland owes money to other jurisdictions also. Is Iceland genuinely trying to honor debts and commitments or just trying to appease only the bully with the biggest stick (UK) for political reasons ?
The Lord, your son wont be paying it off for 20 years! More like 15 at the most! And about you refusing to pay, you dont have a choice, the debt will be persued either way!
This will explain all this mess:
ICELAND UNDER ATTACK:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK2P78yP5ic
>It’s not just about Icesave – Iceland owes money to other jurisdictions also.
Are you confusing Iceland with Landsbanki/Kaupthing? I’m thinking of the IoM, for example, that clearly is not an Icelandic government problem (unless, I suppose, a court case can prove regulatory negligence).
Why should UK and Dutch taxpayers pay for failed Icelandic banks?
No matter what happens, for all parties involved (Islandic and non-Islandic), it is important that Iceland should start it’s recovery asap.
Only when Iceland recovers, it can pay, whatever is agreed/obliged/neccesary to be paid.
What is preventing Iceland from recovery?
These are Risk and uncertainty. Having to pay of a loan is not a problem. Having to pay a lot for a loan, is not nececcarily a problem, but not knowing what you have to pay, and if you can pay, is a problem. Because as long as that is uncertain, investing in Iceland, will be risky!
What if Iceland would accept this deal with UK/Dutch. Is this risk taken away?
NO, it is not!
One of the important factors in all of this, is the recovery ratio for Landsbanki Old. At this moment, the depositors have a preffered status. Assuming that 60% of these assets will be recovered, the Islandic government will be able to use this money to pay of the UK/Dutch deal. But the bondholders, who were degraded to a non-preferent status when Landsbanki fell, don’t agree on this, and will use all their legal power to have this split in preference removed. The first rulings of the EFTA SA are in the advantage of iceland. But the bondholders can go to the Islandic court, and to the European Court for Human Rights. This may take up to 15 years before there is a final verdict on this issue. Until this verdict, it is not possble to start dividing the recovered assets of Landsbanki. What if, after 15 years the verdict is that depositors and bondholders should be treatet equal? This means a recovery rate of 30% instead of 60%! And this immediately means big problems for Iceland! These potential risks/uncertanty alone, make a smooth recovery difficult so 60% may become 50%, measured in a devaluated Krona!)
Next to that, we have the Private Depositors who claim to be discriminated when landsbanki was split in old and new, and all Icelandic depositors, were transferred to the new bank, still having their savings! At this moment, the EFTA SA is looking into this. What if the EFTA decides this is discrimination? Then Iceland is in even worse problems. Another risk that should be taken away before recovery can start.
So, I challenge the Islandic people to think of an alternative to the current deal. Think of a solution, and not a money deal! So a NO to the current deal, turns into a YES for an alternative.
Challenge the Islandic government to reopen the negotiations, but not to talk about the adjustment of the deal, but to talk about a solution for Iceland, removing all litigation. this on the long run is the best solution for all!
I read a lot of comments like: Why should the people pay for a few louzy bankers?
The people are not paying for louzy bankers. They are paying for louzy supervision from the FME. And that is the exact reason why it is a public matter. If the supervision acted upon what they saw was happening, they might have prevented this, by forcing Landsbanki to turn its UK and dutch branches into subsidiaries: If the subsidiary would fail, the Deposit guarantee scheme of Iceland wouldn’t have to guarantee! The UK and Dutch Guarantee Scheme would have!
About supervision and truth.
Before the collapse, all of Europe could sleep under the warm blanket of united supervision. celand, UK, the Dutch… All working together on supervision. Since supervision is what went wrong. Why isn’t this properly investigated in a European context? Because it’s likely not only FME failed, but also the British and Dutch supervisor. Since in all these countries the people have to pay for the burden, directly or indirectly, they have a right to know what happened! As long as FME doesn’t open it’s books on what exactly happened, they will be go down in history as the Supervisor that made all mistakes…. The Islandic government should throw everything in the open. I bet there is a lot in it that can be thrown at the UK and the Dutch!
But first things first: Let the Islandic government reopen the negotiations. But make sure it’s at a high political level, aiming for a solution for Iceland, taking into account all parties involved. Removing all litigation, so Iceland can close this chapter, and start to recover. Not an administrative deal for the UK an the Dutch
Aggi
As a taxpayer in Niceland”
Please dont overrate with the nice!
It is called sarcasm.
>At this moment, the depositors have a preffered status. Assuming that 60% of these assets will be recovered, the Islandic government will be able to use this money to pay of the UK/Dutch deal. But the bondholders, who were degraded to a non-preferent status when Landsbanki fell, don’t agree on this, and will use all their legal power to have this split in preference removed. The first rulings of the EFTA SA are in the advantage of iceland. But the bondholders can go to the Islandic court, and to the European Court for Human Rights.
Just to be clear bond holder can go toe EFTA Court not European Court for Human Rights.
EFTA Court is one that does have jurisdiction on this.
Here are details :
http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/12/30/the-icelandic-parliament-althingi-says-yes-to-icesave/#comment-108342
http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/11/28/icelandic-president-urged-to-say-no-to-icesave/#comment-103942
Here is EFTA Survelliance Authority initaal opinion on emergency law splitting banks in 2008 ( this was complaint on behalf of 39 foreign bank bond holder ) :
http://www.forsaetisraduneyti.is/media/frettir/Bradabirgdanidurstada_ESA.pdf
The plaintiff banks need to get they reply to that opinion by 15th January so hope soon we will here more.
>The people are not paying for louzy bankers. They are paying for louzy supervision from the FME.
And from the UK FSA and Dutch Central Bank ( although to lesser degree as Dutch did try to get IceSave into their guarantee scheme more but EU directive they claim did make it not possible ).
>Before the collapse, all of Europe could sleep under the warm blanket of united supervision. celand, UK, the Dutch… All working together on supervision. Since supervision is what went wrong. Why isn’t this properly investigated in a European context? Because it’s likely not only FME failed, but also the British and Dutch supervisor. Since in all these countries the people have to pay for the burden, directly or indirectly, they have a right to know what happened!
Yes exactly and only here in Iceland is there this two paralell investigations to find out.
After Kaarlo Jännäri ( Finland ex central banker ) report we also do have our commision that willr eport in February and may result in impeachments of some our burecrat and politicians.
We also do have our special Prosecutor Ólafur Þór Hauksson who is looking into the bankers and others with help from Eva Joy and her team of French and Norwegian specialist.
And we are only ones investigating ! Not any others in Europe about their own bankers and regulators.
>But first things first: Let the Islandic government reopen the negotiations. But make sure it’s at a high political level, aiming for a solution for Iceland, taking into account all parties involved. Removing all litigation, so Iceland can close this chapter, and start to recover. Not an administrative deal for the UK an the Dutch
I think this sentiments is shared by many Icelander.
But as to those currently in govenrment seats, Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir and Social Democrats dont care. They just care about EU member ship at any cost and they pet projects like banning lap dancing.
And Steingrímur J. just has no back bone. He is just a timid mouse. Given his long history of fist waving thuggishness against his opponents he has turned in a mouse and betrayed his principles and voters in office.
He is a crazy but many had hoped a principles one. But it was not to be.
For all of you who talk about “private bank” please remember that what we are dscussing is a nationalised bank (Landsbanki)that was privatised by ALL Icelanders through the passing of a new law by an Icelandic government elected by ALL Icelanders but without adequate regulations to prevent it from going out of control and placing the whole Icelandic economy in jeopardy. Thus the responsibility for the Icelandic banking system collapse lies wth all Icelanders, as they all played a part, like it or not sinply by electing the government officals concerned including Son of Grim(s).
For all of you who talk about “private bank” please remember that what we are dscussing is a nationalised bank (Landsbanki)that was privatised by ALL Icelanders through the passing of a new law by an Icelandic government elected by ALL Icelanders but without adequate regulations to prevent it from going out of control and placing the whole Icelandic economy in jeopardy. Thus the responsibility for the Icelandic banking system collapse lies wth all Icelanders, as they all played a part, like it or not sinply by electing the government officials concerned including Son of Grim(s).
DO NOT SUBMIT, RESIST THE CRIMINAL INTERNATIONAL BANKERS AND THE EUSSR SAVE YOURSELVES WHILE YOU CAN
Bankers again! The Russian Revolution wasn’t enough? Indivs. at Goldman Sachs,the Bank of England,to name a few should be brought up on charges of fraud. Has anyone been arrested for fraud? Why is this the responsibility of the citizens of Iceland? This is not being covered in the press in the states. Hardly anyone here has even heard of this heist. The media is controlled by 6 major international companies.
http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/001/Media/mediamoguls.jpg
> And we are only ones investigating ! Not any others in Europe about their own bankers and regulators.
In the Netherlands there has been a report by 2 professors. Conclusions in short: The Dutch National Bank knew things were going the wrong way, but since they were not the home-supervisor, they had no authority to do anything. FME did not respond to any of the concerns they expressed. Before further actions towards FME could be taken, Landsbanki went over the edge…
During the investigation, there were many doubts with regards to why (or why not) steps were taken, because there was too little documented. This was the main point for improvement….
“For all of you who talk about “private bank” please remember that what we are dscussing is a nationalised bank (Landsbanki) ”
Also, all the banks were effectively nationalised as they went bust and they have been recapitalised by the Icelandic government. The liabilities of the banks have therefore fallen on the state..
Fishy
” >They are paying for louzy supervision from the FME.”
“And from the UK FSA and Dutch Central Bank ( although to lesser degree as Dutch did try to get IceSave into their guarantee scheme more but EU directive they claim did make it not possible ).”
So you agree that the Icelandic banks should have been shut down in the UK and Holland before they were? I thought you believed that Kaputhing, for instance was a ‘well run bank’ (!!!).
You are ignoring the little fact that the Icelandic regulator allowed Icesave to break an agreement to limit the deposit taking and failed to get the sufficient funds in the depositor protection scheme to cover the funds. I suppose the Dutch are at fault for allowing the Icelanders to cheat on their agreement?
The ‘Its your fault for making it easy to steal/rape you’ defence, eh?
> Why should UK and Dutch taxpayers pay for failed Icelandic banks?
The same reason why taxpayers would pay for any other failed company which has a branch in your country. For example if an American company goes bankrupt, UK will still pay unemployment funds itself to the employees living there.
harry said :
>In the Netherlands there has been a report by 2 professors. Conclusions in short: The Dutch National Bank knew things were going the wrong way, but since they were not the home-supervisor, they had no authority to do anything.
Thank you for that informations. Could you link it for us ?
I did say :
> And we are only ones investigating ! Not any others in Europe about their own bankers and regulators.
What I mean is not related to Icelandic owned banks / branches but to the horrible troubles of banks such as Royal Bank of Scoltand and HBOS, Bradford and Bingleys in UK, DSB Bank, ING in Holland, etc. and why the regualotrs failed.
Peter – London did write :
>So you agree that the Icelandic banks should have been shut down in the UK and Holland before they were? I thought you believed that Kaputhing, for instance was a ‘well run bank’ (!!!).
Kaupthing Edge was in a fully regulated subsidiary in the UK. It was a UK bank. Regulated in UK. Kautphing Singer and Friedlander. ( And its terms to operate Edge were very strict from UK FSA. )
I think my previous posts many times made clear that allowing branches of banks was wrong application of EEA pillar of freedom of establishment by EU burecrats that did make the 94/19/EC directive ( law ) on deposit guarantees.
Each country should be able to decide which banks do open up in they jurisdiction and under what terms, and blocking them from operating if they are not happy with it , even if general standards for that are specify by EU directives within EU and EEA and against state aid, etc.
So let us not forget It was the horrible poorly done work by the EU burecrats that did push this into law and force it down throat of EU member state. That Icelander banks did follow the regulations and laws to letter does not mean that those regulations were correct.
I think that Uk and Holland should not have been prevented by EU law from forcing Landbanki to enter their UK IceSave operations as subsidiary, not branch.
But it clearly would have made no difference in the end as Darling and Brown were decided to take the banks any way by ” hook or crook ” ( see Kaupthing Singer and Friendlander ).
I also think that the whole concept of having deposit gurantee in the first place is wrong wrong wrong.
There were many years in Europe before the 1994 directive when there was not the same insurances like this to distort market and customer behaviours. And there were very few bank failures.
Problems that we have seen in last years are result of this depoit guarantees and that cheap money availalbe on wholesale markets during this hole 2001 to 2008 time when major currency ( USD, Yen, GBP, EUR ) interest rate were ridiculously low.
This mean that bankers could run they usual bank business of borrow money and making loans but lack of market discipline with all almost free money out there chasing higher returns from being in banks means maturity mismatching got hugely amplified.
When Lehmans fell that meant the whole sale markets did close suddenly. Then it was about currency mismatching which we are still now seeing in a different way in the way that for IceSave we must pay the depoiut guarantee to the Dutch and British in EUROs and British pounds, not in our Crowns.
So we have to export real goods and service to sell the get that money to pay this debts.
>I think that Uk and Holland should not have been prevented by EU law from forcing Landbanki to enter their UK IceSave operations as subsidiary, not branch.
>But it clearly would have made no difference in the end as Darling and Brown were decided to take the banks any way by ” hook or crook ” ( see Kaupthing Singer and Friendlander ).
Just to clear up I see that was not worded clearly.
I mean that Uk and Holland should have been able to force Landsbanki to have IceSave as a subsidiary fully regulated in the UK ( as was done by Kautphing with Edge ). EU regulations stopped them
– I do for the moment and course of this discussions ignore what Alain Lipietz+ did say about the requirement to treat EFTA branches more stricktly than EU branches because I do not think that its truth does much except make UK FSA and Holland Central Bank do not understand the EU regulartions ( not that the EU burecrats seem to either ), because the problem is there should * not * be branches allowed, only subsidiaries .
+http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2010/01/12/lipietz-rejects-rejection-of-his-icesave-rejection/
“The same reason why taxpayers would pay for any other failed company which has a branch in your country.”
Icesave was based in Iceland, it wasn’t a branch in the UK. It collected money from the UK, but it was 100% Icelandic – managed, regulated.
> the problem is there should * not * be branches allowed, only subsidiaries .
In general. Regardless if EU or EFTA banks.
Iceland is not legally obliged to pay the Icesave debt. UK and Dutch saver new of the risk and the fact that it is a foreign bank. FSA in UK allowed it without any guaranty from Icelandic government. According to UK regulations Iceland doesn’t have to pay hence they never benefited from Icesave operations in UK. In fact it was UK who enjoyed 40% of Icesave’s profits while it was operating in UK. When UK banks went bust in Isle of Man none of the account holders got compensated because they are not UK tax payers. The same should apply to UK tax payers. They didn’t pay taxes in Iceland they don’t get compensated. On the top of that Iceland has lost enormous amount of money when UK used antiterrorist law again without any legal grounds. Iceland was made a scapegoat for short term opportunistic purposes by the UK and Dutch government. I think Gordon Brown is just trying to show off his muscles and destruct UK tax payers from the £40 billion paid to city bankers in bonuses for successfully ruining UK banking system. 40 billions is 10 times more than what he is trying to squeeze out of Iceland. And big chunk of these bonuses comes directly out UK tax payers pocket since government had to bail out or nationalised half of the UK banks. Just cannot wait this idiot go. I think Icelanders have pretty good chance of wriggling out of this black mail one Cameron comes to power this summer. You just have to stall the process till May at least. I think Icelandic government should also start lobbing the case with Conservatives. They have in the past criticised Brown for handling the Icesave case and using antiterrorist law against fellow European country.
Bravo for your President not signing that bill—-personally I hope that your referendum is successful—–or totally abrogate the debt and extradite your bankers from London on criminal charges——a small suggestion why not grant naval and air bases to Russia——the money should help pay any debt and the CIA and MI6 stations would bring in additional income too—–your life would be much more exciting!
“I mean that Uk and Holland should have been able to force Landsbanki to have IceSave as a subsidiary fully regulated in the UK ( as was done by Kautphing with Edge ). EU regulations stopped them”
It would be more exact to say that Icelandic banks could not be stopped from doing as they saw fit. The Icelandic regulator could of, I presume, forced Icesave into UK regulation but choose not to.
I see that you seem to be in agreement that neither the Icelandic regulator or banks were fit for purpose.
>I think Icelanders have pretty good chance of wriggling out of this black mail one Cameron comes to power this summer.
If that’s what you’re pinning your hopes on, then good luck. The Conservatives are going to cut public spending to the bone and beyond. Do you really think they’ll leave themselves open to critiscm for letting Iceland off the hook, assuming they actually wanted to?
And IoM savers weren’t compensated by the UK government not because they weren’t UK taxpayers (many were), but because the IoM is not a part of the UK compensation scheme (Or a part of the UK. Or a part of the EU).
Fisy
>Thank you for that informations. Could you link it for us ?
Hereby: http://www.tweedekamer.nl/kamerstukken/dossiers/evaluatie_icesave.jsp (it’s all Dutch…)
Furthermore, at this moment, there is a commission investiagtion the handling of the Dutch Governement in the Credit Crises. Not only looking a t Icesave, but also at ABN AMRO, Fortis, ING, DSB and so on.
Today, it was anounced that FME (ao) was not willing to cooperate: http://www.fd.nl/artikel/14001711/graaf-lippens-laat-commissie-kredietcrisis-kou-staan
(also Dutch) Results are expected in April 2010.