Over 7,000 people had, yesterday evening, already signed a petition from the In Defence Group, urging Icelandic president Olafur Ragnar Grimsson not to sign the expected Icesave contract with the UK and the Netherlands when it passes parliament.
The group is trying to ensure that the Icesave law’s financial obligations on the country will be put to a national referendum.
At the time of writing, the petition had been open for less than two days.
Meanwhile, the Icelandic government has declared it will do all in its power to ensure the Icesave law is passed by parliament before the beginning of next month. Government leaders believe that a majority is attainable.
The In Defence petition people are signing reads:
“I urge the President of Iceland, Mr. Olafur Ragnar Grimsson, to veto the new Icesave laws. I believe it is only fair that the debt the government places on Icelanders and future generations of this country should be put to the nation to decide in a referendum.”
“Icesave law is passed by parliament before the beginning of next month”
That means it’s going to be passed on Monday! Woohoo!!! Then the referendum will reject it! Boohoo!!!
It does not sounds reasonnable to force Iceland in a unilateral decision about Icesave.
That’s very interesting to see that they are no analysis of the consequence of such decision by the “In Defence” group…
IMF will take the loan back (well maybe that’s not soo bad…), EU application will be ruined (that is very bad there is no way Iceland can take over the crisis without any help), UK and Netherland will go to a court and Iceland will loose (this is gonna be much more expensive than the actual bill).
Most of the people do not understand how the politics work. And they are about to pay for that.
I think the people of the UK and the Netherlands should be informed that their governments are forcing a small nation to take on great debt because a privately owned company went bankrupt.
Iceland had already fulfilled all its obligations according to EEA law.
The UK and the Netherlands are doing this simply because due to their size they can.
I wish someone would explain to me why Iceland doesn’t simply declare bankruptcy, instead of paying the Icesave debts. If the Icelandic currency is depreciated enough so that exports are higher then imports, then there is nothing that Britain or others could do about it, because then there is then no need for a foreign loans. When Argentina went bankrupt, they offered to pay their debts at 35% of value. Most swallowed hard, and accepted the offer. Those debtors, that didn’t accept the offer, have gotten nothing are are still waiting.
I made this point before, and someone replied that Iceland has other debt payments so that the balance of trade is not favorable. Well then, Iceland will just have to default on those “other debts” and work out a acceptable [to Iceland] revised payment schedule.
Jim did right :
>That means it’s going to be passed on Monday! Woohoo!!! Then the referendum will reject it!
This Icesave dispute should be going to court for judgement, not to the court of the public opinion.
Of course a referdum will cause it to be rejected. But that is not the same as a judge making a ruling — and appeal to EFTA Court. It is merely ( like this nonsense Anthill ideas ) meaning that it is unpopular.
This referendum does not have any legal power over actual legallyity of icesave monies that EU regulations did burden Icelandic tax payer with.
Decision on paymnts needs to be in front of impartial court and then appeals process to have legitimacy.
But let us not forget that it is this power hungry Steingrímur J. that is causing this whole fiasco that we are seeing since Red-Green coalition did opportunistily break they 2007 to 2009 coalition with Independence Party.
He is just keep to his own power ( and his MPs too ) instead of putting interests of Iceland tax payer and people living hear first as is his oath. ( And of course what he did say he believes in like in his book manifestor ” All of Us” few years ago.
What the hell is he still doing sharing government bed with traitor to tax payer and country as whole Social Democrats ?
jdk wrote :
>IMF will take the loan back (well maybe that’s not soo bad…),
http://www.imf.org/external/np/vc/2009/111209.htm
This disaster control attempt by director of IMF to try and protect it reputation is too little and too late.
They have showed that the bias in IMF is for those that does bank roll them and that those board member ( those large countrys ) simply do control the IMF. And of course it is same in EU.
Maybe only in NATO are things handled differently because the contracts are of a different kind.
Head of IMF did say in the letter:
“First, on the Icesave dispute. Resolution of this dispute has never been a condition of the IMF-supported program. The IMF is not supposed to involve itself in bilateral disputes between its member countries and did not do so in this instance. However, the Icesave dispute did indirectly affect the timing of the program’s first review since it held up needed financing from Nordic countries (for whom resolution of this dispute was a condition). I am sure you will agree that the government’s program must be internally consistent—it makes no sense to agree on a macroeconomic framework if the money is not available to finance those policies.”
I say, bull sh*t. Of course it is not meant to get involved in this way. But by holding up the reviews it did exactly that.
This is just whining ” its not our fault “. It is your fault Mr Strauss-Kahn for not being scrupulessly fair and making it known that you are.
But of course you are bank roll not only by Japan and USA but by EU country too in big way. But you should be honest about it.
“Second, on the more general point about Iceland’s indebtedness. The IMF and the Icelandic authorities recognized from the beginning that Iceland’s post-crisis level of indebtedness would represent a huge challenge to the country. That is why we agreed, as a key principle, that the government should not absorb creditor losses. As I am sure you are aware, investors and creditors have in fact sustained very large losses due to this crisis. Despite repeated appeals for bail outs, the government has not stepped in to shield them.”
That at least I agree with in some level — but still huge monies is going to be paid because of Icesave and in putting the banks back on they feet.
It still is ridiculous to me that Red-Green coalition is having law suit about liaiblity of the law that did push down bond holders down list of creditors in favour of the depositors in the banks.
But will not have law suit over the Icesave payments.
It is just so negligent and ridiculous spine lessness.
Is this government or a jelly fish ?
This video they made a year ago does sum up how the IMF does see it self ( very slick productions ) :
http://www.imf.org/external/mmedia/view.asp?eventID=1329
” Since the IMF programm was anounced stability is slowly returning but the situation is still very volatile. ”
” but what would have happend if the IMF had not stepped in?
alerntative would have been sigfnicant strain on households that have their mortgages fixed in foreign exchange. on the corporate sector that has loans fixed inforeign exchange. a lot of defaults. much higher increase in unemployment. reduction in GDP much higher than minus 10 per cent.
if you had not had the help of the IMG it would have been much tougher.”
In the video then they do compare IMF policy response to Swedish banking crisis collapse and then at end do go on to say that:
“Iceland is going to face a couple of years of hard ship. This is a dramatic shock. It probably going to be most expensive bank restructuring the world has ever seen relative to the size of theeconomy. I do expect that after this relatively sharp downturn that the economy could rebound fairly fast. ” ( Poul Thomsen of IMF then )
It might have done if we did not have this less than useless Red-Green coalition.
>EU application will be ruined (that is very bad there is no way Iceland can take over the crisis without any help)
We will get help in form of direct investments from individuals and company around world. We do not need the EU. We should remain a member of EFTA as it does make things easier in market access in Europe but we do not need the EU.
EU member ship will mean end of ability for us to control our trade with rest of world. As now negotiation free trade treaty with other country like China, US, any other country. EU member ship is a return to the times of the Danish trade monopoloy with a remote power making decisions for us on all matters and of course in every one else’s interest except ours, but in our name.
( Still it amazes me that UK people does stay in EU and does not force politicians to leave back to EFTA which UK government did founded. After Lisbon Treaty its interests are no longer served as EU member state. Look at how EU is killing off City of London through it regulations )
As I say before there is plenty of poeple outside Iceland that does want to and will like to trade with us here in Iceland. There is flowering of Icelandic websties selling outside many products and service.
It is not only the natural resources that people outside want. Icelanders do make great stylistic products, etc and people like them from around the world:
http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/04/26/iceland-elections-conclusion/#comment-74266
But we will not get this recovery as long as Steingrímur J. and Jóhanna S do keep this ridiculos attitude to what they are doing.
Is it not dawning that the only progrss make was when they advisers did go public and threaten to resign. Eva Joly, Mats Josefsson and others not so high profile.
http://icelandreview.com/icelandreview/search/news/Default.asp?ew_0_a_id=324680
Mats Josefsson then did make situation clear again when a couple of weeks ago he did state at a conference that the restoration of the country’s banking system is not being prioritized by the government.
http://www.icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_news/?cat_id=28304&ew_0_a_id=351935
Then of course we hear this nice words from IMF about how much has been achieved over the last year. Yes something has been done. But nothing close to enough. I trust Mats Josefsson and Eva Joly more than I trust Gylfi M now he is stained with his association as part of this Red-Green coalition.
All enegies was on the pet projects of Social Democrat like banning lapdancing and the EU application which you all will notice was done and made with amazing speed.
+We will get help in form of direct investments from individuals and company around world.
But of course not until bank restructng is done properly and exchange control are dismantled. At moment all people is doing is buying Icelandic products over Internet as that is only way now that is not restricted.
( IceSave dispute should have been in court in same way as case of bond holder being pushed down list of creditors is. Then this case would be at EFTA Court by now for fair appeal judgement.
It should have been clear to any one who is not an idiot that given Brown and Darlings actions there is no possible way that dealing directly is going to result in a fair outcome.
It should have simply been told to UK and Holland. Sue us here in court. Then you will have ruling from EFTA Court which we Icelandsers will abide by.
But of course both governments fear that decision. Because a juge and experts will show just how horrible this EU directives are and how they are not designed for us to pay this huge debt of the deposit insurances ++ at 5.5% interest ++ that Uk and Holland did ask for.
Fisy, I can’t hold my tongue any longer. Your deliberate ignorance and repeated stubbornness are too much to handle.
You don’t have to love the red/green government to realise that they are taking exactly the sort of hard decisions and pushing through the sort of unpopular laws that any government would be doing right now – and which they themselves promised before the election. Everybody knew this government had a hard job to do.
In my mind, anybody pining for the old Independence Party to make a return is simply crazy. This problem is their fault in the first place and they have done absolutely nothing to change their corruption and their incredibly strong “old boys’ network”.
Just because Davíð Oddsson is a newspaper editor now doesn’t mean anyone should actually listen to the poisonous drivvel he comes out with.
We voted Steingrímur and Jóhanna in – so let’s judge them at the next election. To expect anyone to have done a better job in just six months is pie in the sky, frankly.
On a different note, I wonder what makes you and other Icelandic Euro-sceptics so much more knowledgeable than everyone else in the continent? Everyone knows there are good things and bad things about the EU, but I choose to believe the happy people of small countries like Luxembourg, Finland, Malta and Belgium over your particular brand of Euro Doom!
“We voted Steingrímur and Jóhanna in – so let’s judge them at the next election”
If the Icesave agreements approved by Iceland’s government don’t go ahead for whatever reaso), then the government should be replaced with one that is able to govern. To borrow Norman Lamont’s famous quote, the government “gives the impression of being in office but not in power”. I would therefore view an Icesave referendum as a vote of confidence in the current government, so the general election may not be far away…
“EU member ship is a return to the times of the Danish trade monopoloy with a remote power making decisions for us on all matters and of course in every one else’s interest except ours, but in our name.
”
I just do not think it is correct to portray the EU as a continuation of the Danish monopoly or as a threat to Iceland.
I am not too enthousiastic about the EU myself but really, if it were so terrible, then why aren’t there any strong movements in different EU memberstates to leave te EU?
Do you really think that people in the EU are stupidly accepting anything that comes from Brussels?
Fact of the matter is that all in all membership has been beneficial for most people in most states.
Please take a look at the smaller member states too (like Malta, Cyprus, Luxembourg). Especially there people are pleased with EU membership.
I would like to draw attention to Malta especially.
Fisy, in a previous post you tried to explain maltese membership of the EU by pointing out that maltese want to have european passports.
It is much more complicated than that (in fact Malta already was a member of the commonwealth meaning that they could travel to the EU without any problem).
There was a very strong debate about membership and finally, in a referendum only a small majority voted for membership:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2003
Objections were very similar to those of Iceland: we are too small to have any influence, our resources will be taken away etcetera.
But fact of the matter is that EU membership has been a good thing: especially the adoption of the euro has helped Malta to withstand the kreppa much better than Iceland.
Olafur said he would sign the law last time only because of the amendments who had been added to the Icesave deal, now the amendments have been removed, so he will send this to the nation to decide.
Agree with you Runestone about the Independence party and David Oddsson,
but i dont see what is positive about the EU,
what is the EU ?, the Elite Union ?
i am sure it was a great idea in the beginning but some how it turned to sh*t,
as i see this it is a huge mafia style syndicate that focuses on removing democracy freedom human rights and your right to privacy to name a few points, the objective seems to create the situation in near future that children are born as slaves, a property of the state,
Iceland can not get the Euro, we dont fulfill the requirements for that and we wont for some 20-30 years, if ever,
the EU is as un transparent as it could possibly be
and its not to be trusted.
FISY ;We will get help in form of direct investments from individuals and company around world. We do not need the EU. We should remain a member of EFTA as it does make things easier in market access in Europe but we do not need the EU.”
1. ICELAND IS CONTROLLED BY A MAFIA OF POLITICIANS AND BANKERS THAT HAVE STOLEN BILLIONS FROM EU SAVERS. THE GOVERNMENT-MAFIA BOUGHT THE BANKS TO BE ABLE TO SCAPE WITH THE MONEY AND IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE DEBTS. THE QUESTION IS: WHERE DID THE MONEY GO? ICELANDERS SEEM NOT TO PAY ATTENTION TO THAT. THEY ARE USING YOU AS THEY WANT REDIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE ICESAVE STUFF.. MAFIA MAFIA MAFIA
2. NOT A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL IN THE WHOLE WORLD WILL INVEST MONEY IN ICELAND. REMEMBER THAT THERE ARE STILL HUNDREDS OF INVESTORS WAITING FOR THE FIRST OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE THEIR MONEYS OUT OF THE COUNTRY. ICELANDS BEHAVIOR HAS JUST BLEW UP ANY POSSIBLE TRUST IN THE COUNTRY.
3. YOU DON´T NEED EU? BUT YOU WANT TO REMAIN A MEMBER OF EFTA. LOOK, ICELAND WILL PROBABLY BE KICKED OUT OF EFTA BECAUSE THERE ARE CERTAIN CONTRACTS THAT ICELAND CANNOT BREAK. ICESAVE IS GOING TO BE THE BEGINNING OF ICELAND OUT OF THE EFTA. SO GOOD BYE AND GOOD LUCK!
4. IMF IS NOT GOING TO BORROW MONEY TO ICELAND, ICELAND IS GOING TO BE KICKED OUT OF EFTA ( BECOMING AN EU MEMBER WILL BE JUST A DREAM) YOU WILL COME OUT TO BE THE POOREST COUNTRY IN THE WHOLE EUROPE. YOU WILL HAVE TO START USING USA DOLLARS OR WHATEVER BECAUSE KRONURS MARKET WILL FINALLY SHOW IT IS NOT VIABLE. THE COUNTRY WILL GO THROUGH SEVERAL CIVIL REVOLTS AND STRIKES. YOU CAN EXPECT SHORTAGE OF GASOIL AND OTHER THINGS IN THE COUNTRY.
5. BECAUSE OF THE INCOMPETENCE OF THE GOVERNMENT, THE HIGH LEVELS OF CORRUPTION, THE MAFIA THAT STILL CONTROLS THE COUNTRY, THIS IS BECOMING A BANANA REPUBLIC AND THERE IS NO WAY BACK FOR THIS UNLESS ICELANDERS WAKE UP AND DO SOMETHING. AND YOU AT THE END WILL HAVE TO DO SOMETHING. WHEN THINGS GET EVEN WORSE DURING THE NEXT YEAR IT COULD EVEN END IN A CIVIL WAR OR SOME KIND OF VIOLENT PERFORMANCE OF A POPULATION THAT IS GOING TO EXPLODE FINALLY BECAUSE OF SO MUCH INJUSTICE.
6. STEINGRIMUR AND ALL THE REDS DON´T REALLY CARE BECAUSE THEY ARE STILL LIVING ON A COMMUNIST DREAM OF LONG QUEUES FRO BUYING MEAT, DRIVING LADAS AND DRINKING VODKA AND EDUCATION FOR FREE BUT WITHOUT MONEY FOR SCHOOLS. YES, IT IS CUBA WHAT ICELAND IS BECOMING. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ICELAND AND CUBA IS THAT YOU ARE YOURSELF ASKING FOR BEING ISOLATED AND POOR.
WHERE IS THE MONEY? ICELANDERS ARE JUST SHOWING THAT THEY ARE NO BETTER THAN THE LAMBS PASTING PEACEFULLY ON THE GREENS AROUND THE ISLAND…
AND I AM NOT AGAINST ICELAND. IT IS ACTUALLY SO SAD THAT THIS COUNTRY WITH SO MANY POSSIBILITIES AND WITH SO MANY SMART YOUNG PEOPLE IS JUST THE PLAY TOY OF A PUNCH OF MAFIA OF OLD DISGUSTING DOGS THAT HAVE TOTALLY BETRAYED THE COUNTRY, STOLEN MONEY FROM THE PEOPLE OF ICELAND AND IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES AS WELL…
I THINK THEY JUST TOOK IT SERIOUSLY THE STUFF OF BEING VIKINGS. THINKING ONLY ABOUT THEIR CLOSEST FAMILY MEMBERS AND STEALING ALL AROUND THEY COULD. THIS IS GOING TO END WITH UNITED NATIONS FORCES PUTTING SOME ORDER IN THE COUNTRY BECAUSE PEOPLE IS ABOUT TO EXPLODE. WHAT HAPPENED LAST TIME WAS ONLY A TV SHOW FOR KIDS COMPARING WITH WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN ICELAND IN THE NEAR FUTURE…
THE MAFIA NEEDS TO BE KICKED INTO JAILS. THEY HAVE DONE NOTHING FOR THE PEOPLE! THEY JUST HAVE BEEN CLEANING THE MESS THAT AFFECTS THEM. NO INVESTIGATIONS NOTHING. THE MONEY IS GONE!! AND WHAT THEY DO IS JUST TO PARDON THE DEBTS OF A FEW INDIVIDUALS, DEBTS OF HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS!!! WHY NOT PARDON THE DEBT OF EVERY ICELANDER??
BURT BURT BURT!!!!
Somebody needs to explain why Iceland should pay for the bankrupcy of a privately owned company working under the supervision of the countries in which it was operating.
It’s clear that Icelands obligation according to EEA law was to maintain a deposit insurance fund, funded by banks using a percentage of their income. There was never a law stating that Iceland should take responsibility for actions taken by independent individuals. The deposit insurance fund was never meant to deal with the collapse of this size.
“. The deposit insurance fund was never meant to deal with the collapse of this size.”
True, but Brutain and the Netherlands are much bigger than Iceland, so…
Iceland may be ruined, but something good may come out of this mess, the scam is much bigger than Iceland, there are connections to many other countrys, like Britain for example,
Wikileaks is here in Iceland now collecting data
they have new information who will be published once it has been compleated.
I hope the Icesave matter will be sent to a referendum,
almost 14000 have signed so far
http://www.indefence.is/
“Fisy, I can’t hold my tongue any longer. Your deliberate ignorance and repeated stubbornness are too much to handle.”
You have to remember that Fisy is the one of the people who screwed Iceland through his total, complete and absolute stupidity and is now trying to shift blame to anyone who he can.
Daniel – I think you are one of many people who are ignorant of both the facts of this dispute and the relevant laws. That is ironically one of the reasons that I suspect the Icelandic people will prefer the Icesave dispute is resolved in court, rather than via negotiation. It will prove an enlightening and educating case, but the outcome is likely to be a disaster for Iceland. For an indication, check how the independent arbitration effort progressed until Iceland withdrew from that.
Daniel – There are many documents you could chew over. Here is one example:
http://www.island.is/media/eydublod/Forgangsr-LegalOpinion_-_SuperPriority_-_PM.pdf
Sorry Daniel, but you are flat-out wrong. Whilst it may not be clear that a state guarantee of the deposit insurance was required, it is most certainly clear that it was not not required, IYSWIM. Certainly no legal opinion has been published that says that Iceland has no obligation, whereas there are legal opinions that say that they do.
Also, your first sentence is, depending how you meant it, likely incorrect as the FME had the responsibility for regulating Landsbanki.
Mikec said”
“I wish someone would explain to me why Iceland doesn’t simply declare bankruptcy, instead of paying the Icesave debts.
… Iceland will just have to default on those “other debts” and work out a acceptable [to Iceland] revised payment schedule …”
If Iceland doesn’t agree to pay Icesave, then most likely they cannot join the EU and cannot get the Euro, and probably will get kicked out of EFTA. Also, the foreign loan package of $10 billion from the IMF and Scandinavia will probably be stopped. In addition, Iceland will face lawsuits from Icesave losers in Britain and Netherlands, with the result that Icelandic government assets abroad will be frozen and seized. including what is left of the Landsbanki assets. All in all, a very heavy price to pay.
The Icelandic government strategy seems to be to agree to pay for Icesave now, then wait 10-20 years, and the Europeans and British will forgive the rest of the debt.
Also, there is no such thing as sovereign bankruptcy.
If Iceland defaults on their foreign debt, they will receive no more IMF loan money, and the EU application will probably be stopped. Also, the Icesave agreement would be in jeopardy and the British/Dutch could sue to get their money now.
If the Icelandic government refuses to pay for the Landsbanki and Kaupthing and Glitnir debt and puts these banks in bankruptcy, then Iceland would lose about 1400-2000 in domestic Icelandic savings accounts and most of the assets in the country would go to the foreign creditors. Again, a very heavy price to pay.
There are no good options for Iceland.
I understand that Iceland could not join the EU if it defaults. But so what. What’s the problem? I see nothing that the EU could do for Iceland except to give them money, which is unlikely in the extreme.
Obviously many nations default on their debts [which is definition of bankruptcy]. Argentina and Iraq did so just recently. Ask Russia when they think that they will get back the money that they loaned to Saddam Hussein if you don’t believe it.
Insofar as bankruptcy cutting off further loans, of course that will happen. But can Iceland continue to increase loans forever? Sooner or later, exports must exceed imports! The idea that Iceland can’t default now but in 10-20 years, the debtors will forgive the loans is loony. If that’s Iceland’s plan, good luck!
Iceland simply has to realize that the Icesave debt is impossible to pay off.
“I see nothing that the EU could do for Iceland except to give them money”
Iceland probably needs is the euro currency more than it needs euro-denominated loan obligations. It needs the euro, not euro loans…
Jim – I read the legal opinion in your link. I mostly agree with it. I agree that the deposit guarentee fund should not have priority over other creditors. However, what I do not see in the opinion any reason why Iceland should be responsible for deposits at all. The fund was set up according to EEA law to deal with bank bankrupcys, the law does not state that should the fund not suffice the government should step in. The fund itself was funded by the banks, not the government.
Legal opinions pointing out that government backing is necessary to maintain the stability of the deposit guarantee system do not change the law itself. The rules were flawed and a lot of people seem to think Iceland should pay for that.
Bromley – The uncertainty regarding state guarantee of deposits comes from the fact that the law does not actually say that there should be that kind of guarantee. Putting huge debt on coming generations of Icelanders based on liberal interpretation of international agreements sounds unfair to me. The written law itself is what the state agreed to.
As for my saying that Landsbankinn was working under the supervision (should have used the word surveillance perhaps) of other countries authorities, ofcourse I know that the bank was also regulated by the Icelandic authorities. I just chose to point out only one side as that seems to fashionable. The Icelandic banks were working under the regulation of both but somehow more attention seems to be on the failures of the Icelandic authorities.
I apologize to all English people here if my use of your language is incorrect in some ways. It is as you may have noticed not my native language.
Runestone write :
>Fisy, I can’t hold my tongue any longer. Your deliberate ignorance and repeated stubbornness are too much to handle.
Well nice of you to care about what I post. I did not know that I had so many of the esteemed reader. You can call me stubborn but I have more often been called principaled .
>Just because Davíð Oddsson is a newspaper editor now doesn’t mean anyone should actually listen to the poisonous drivvel he comes out with.
Would you actually like to quote some of what the devil Davið has said recently ?
The last I heard was his interview some months ago where he point out that Icesave is not a clear liability for tax payer but a political one and so should go in front of a court for impartial decision.
Perhaps Icelander would come out of EFTA court case worse than now but really could it be any worse terms ?
Did you actually read those older post by Bjarni that did lay out reality of what Icesave means for country of us tax payer and our childs and grandchilds ?
http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/09/28/british-and-dutch-stance-on-icesave-hardening/#comment-94519
Vilhjalm Antonsen said :
>If Iceland doesn’t agree to pay Icesave, then .. probably will get kicked out of EFTA.
This is not going to happen without heavy decision of EFTA Court and Survelliance Authority because only it has power over this.
But could EU refuse trade from Icelandic products — or put on punative tarrifs — yes I can imagine that.
Well it did not work with Britain during cod wars — we just found other markets such as freezing and selling to canada and US.
It is a big world out there. EU member states are not by far the whole world. And can you imagine ridiclous headline in UK or other papers of those individuals form EU mebmer state that would break the trade imbargo and trade with us anyway.
“Unpatriotic Citizen Defies Trade Ban: Buys Latest 66 North jacket Online “
Peter – London pop up from his bed sit share with Derek Draper to say :
>You have to remember that Fisy is the one of the people who screwed Iceland through his total, complete and absolute stupidity and is now trying to shift blame to anyone who he can.
Peter – London you are my hero. It is just compliment to my posts here that you do post your well considered opinions to try and disrupt the flow of this conversation.
But dont you worry as usual it won’t disrupt them. Leave it to adults like Jim to make the replies here. Although some times he does go to far — he is poster that has my respects.
He has facts over which thendebate and analyse can happen just like in other great threads of IceSave ( usually which are the ones where Bjarni does post in as well like the one I mention above ).
Dear Daniel and Jim,
Jim wrote:
>That is ironically one of the reasons that I suspect the Icelandic people will prefer the Icesave dispute is resolved in court, rather than via negotiation. It will prove an enlightening and educating case, but the outcome is likely to be a disaster for Iceland. For an indication, check how the independent arbitration effort progressed until Iceland withdrew from that.
It is because this whole thing just smells of unfairness. If there is any suing going on it will happen in Iceland first then to EFTA court.
The case is in no way as clear cut as that opinion for ING Holland does say. I do notice though that this opinion does ignore what actually happend in the member states — that Ireland started by discriminating against foreign owned banks versus local Irish owned ones with different guratnee amounts above the EUR 20,000 depposit fund.
And how the UK did for example discriminate against Icelandic owned banks such as Kaupthing Singer Friedlander by refusing to make that UK bank part of the bailout money that ++all other++ UK based banks regardless of their shareholders did get then.
But this law of separation is not the same as the IceSave law.
It is different case. That case is for bond holders. And it is up to judge to decide it first here in Iceland then I expect up to EFTA Court. Which is how it should be.
The IceSave case is about different aspect — liability for paying out for ++ 5.5% interest ++ and also the general issue of liability when more than 1 bank goes down in flames like happened to us 85% of ours.
And for this we cannot know for sure what EFTA Court will rule. But again I do ask why is EU commission and UK and Holland so scared of seeing this in court ?
Every action of theirs shows it right from the time that Brown and Darling did make they horrible actions of the terrorist law use etc.
Daniel did write:
> I agree that the deposit guarentee fund should not have priority over other creditors.
In world of unlimited pot of money of course, they should be treated the same. But depositors are not same as professional investors.
They did go into this with they eyes open. More so than the depositors did. So they are ones who are most fully informed of potential risks.
They did read the Barlacays Capital report and others from 2006 and still they did buy the Icelandic bonds knowing the risks because they were seeking the biggest return for they monies.
Things went against them and they lost. Why should Icelandic taxpayers foot the bill for next decades to pay for their loss in that case ?
It is reaonable to expect that regardless of what happens there is not going to be many people from those worlds buying Icelandic bonds because these people that did make these investing decisionss are bankcrupt.
I do hope they realize this and do accept the lower offers that they is being offered now. I honestly do not see how better can be given current circumstances.
So for those that dont want to read by posts here is a cut to the chase where the meat of Bjarni’s analysis :
http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/09/28/british-and-dutch-stance-on-icesave-hardening/#comment-94648
Axel said:
>Wikileaks is here in Iceland now collecting data
they have new information who will be published once it has been compleated.
I am looking forward to all the EU funding grant data for the prominent Social Democrats ( you know who you are ) finding it way out.
Fisy wrote:-
“And how the UK did for example discriminate against Icelandic owned banks such as Kaupthing Singer Friedlander by refusing to make that UK bank part of the bailout money that ++all other++ UK based banks regardless of their shareholders did get then.”
Probably because the management of KSF were proving to be unreliable and making promises to the UK government they couldn’t keep. In the end the UK government lost patience with them and moved to protect the depositors. Try reading this article about the KSF High Court judgement, Fisy – you seem to have missed it first time round because you didn’t comment on it.
http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/10/21/kaupthing-loses-claim-against-british-government/
Fusy said:
“And how the UK did for example discriminate against Icelandic owned banks such as Kaupthing Singer Friedlander by refusing to make that UK bank part of the bailout money that ++all other++ UK based banks regardless of their shareholders did get then.”
The bailout happened *after* KSF went bust. B&B and Northern Rock were allowed to fail as well as KSF. I won’t bother reading the rest of your spam, but that was an easy lie to highlight.
>Peter – London pop up from his bed sit share with Derek Draper to say.
Tricky one this, Fisy. Is that statement – Factual – Knowledgeable – Observational –Rhetorical – or Ad-Hominem?
Brumley did write :
>3. I believe that it was Gordon Brown who sold off the gold reserves, and there’s a very real chance that that was a silly thing to do.
That is the soften criticism I have ever seen of one of most utterly avoidable of all financial decisions made by Brown ( and he has made some horrible ones for British tax payer in recent years ) that did lose value for British tax payer.
What next Brumley, do you post soft barely criticisms on other boards excusing Bush and Blair for lies they told in order to invade Iraq ?
You already did take soft criticism to new level here but this post above about gold reserves is one of your most amazing :
http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/09/28/british-and-dutch-stance-on-icesave-hardening/#comment-96983
It is fact that Brown sold at the wrong time. And he sold after giving clear notice to markets that he would be selling. And when advisor did tell him it was wrong thing to do ..
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1655001.ece
“From The Sunday Times
April 15, 2007
Goldfinger Brown’s £2 billion blunder in the bullion market
Chancellor ignored advice on sell-off
Holly Watt and Robert Winnett ”
I do hope that you did buy gold at this time Mike ( Nordic Analyst ).
Niels did write:
>The devaluation was NOT a decision by icelandic autorities but just the effect of market forces.?>In fact , Iceland tried to pegg the krona to the euro when the kreppa started but had to give this up almost immediately since it was impossible to maintain.
True enough. At this stage market was pushing Krona way down below all historical exchange rates even taken away carry trade that bubbled it up to ridiclous levels — sp not surprising given pounding we took with banks all being taken down of 85 % of sector.
But thanks to inaction of Red-Green government since taking power April with banking sector as Mats Josefsson did make clear, and this spine less no backbone ” negotiations ” over IceSave they did waste time on over summer after elections, opportunity to get ISK floated by now which has been lost until next year.
With all the horrible implications this has for us here because money loans is now going to have to be spent.
Knowless did write :
>It’s ironic that the leading critic of the Ireland’s path to self destruction over the
>past 6 years, David McWilliams, has pointed to Iceland’s decisive approach in >taking a few important decisions head on as a contrasting example of how Ireland
>has dithered and dragged indecisiveness before finally stumbling on their final
>solution, borrow Eur 60bn. to bail out the banks by buying up the bad debts at
>close enough to their full over inflated value.
Yes not bailing out is best thing that can be done in circumstances. Bankcrupcy process of liquidations as has finally began to happen here.
You do notice of course that foreign creditors were content to take over old Kaupthing. THis is primarily because they know its assets are going to recover.
Good work there Mike .
+ie what every one can see by the fact that only focus was on EU application and they pet projects — that the restoration of the country’s banking system is not being prioritized by the Red Green government:
http://www.icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_news/?cat_id=28304&ew_0_a_id=351935
>>Peter – London pop up from his bed sit share with Derek Draper to say.
Terry did write :
>Tricky one this, Fisy. Is that statement – Factual – Knowledgeable – Observational –Rhetorical – or Ad-Hominem?
And what exactly was his post that I did reply to in my own given circimastances ?
http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/11/28/icelandic-president-urged-to-say-no-to-icesave/comment-page-1/#comment-103938
“>You have to remember that Fisy is the one of the people who screwed Iceland through his total, complete and absolute stupidity and is now trying to shift blame to anyone who he can.”
I would call my reply an Observational reply.
I do think that a completely ad hominem personal attack by Peter – London did get a factual reply from me exposing his clear mis deeding of disrupting attempts of this discussion.
Peter – London did write:
>The bailout happened *after* KSF went bust. B&B and Northern Rock were allowed to fail as well as KSF. I won’t bother reading the rest of your spam, but that was an easy lie to highlight.
Yet more nonsense non factaul posting Peter – London.
You know full well that the UK Treasury did decide to take Kaupthing Singer and Frieldander was the day that the bailout of the banks was announced and when asked Hector Sants reply was : ” this Bailout money is not for you ” but it was for every other UK based bank.
This discrimination comes in back drop of other UK banks in far worse troubles that Kautphing Singer and Frieldaner were.
It was a deliberate actions from HM Treasury putting pressure on FSA to discriminate. And they did so veyr clearly.