Thanks for your interest in this story and for reading IceNews. We hope you will continue to visit.

I have decided to close the comment board on this particular article because the number of new comments appears to be increasing by the hour and not diminishing slowly as is usual for other stories. This would be absolutely fine if I felt the conversation was moving along – but I am seeing a lot of repetition here.

After spending quite a few hours reading and vetting the comments and removing the most offensive ones, I feel posting a personal opinion is not entirely inappropriate. I also hope nobody minds that I have the last word.

The last word is simply this: after 18 years, it is too late to say the Republic of Macedonia cannot have its name and Greece should accept that. But the Republic of Macedonia should not expect Greece to give it an easy ride as long as Macedonian ‘news’ websites remain so venomously anti-Greece.

Like it or not, there is more to unite the two countries than to separate them. If Europe’s future is a united one, these two countries need to work on learning to understand and appreciate each other right away.

This endless fight and ill-feeling will continue forever if you allow it to.

Thanks again for your interest in IceNews and I sincerely hope nobody takes offence at this personal opinion which is intended to take both sides into account.

Alex, editor

We urge you all again:

DON’T YOU F.Y.R.O.M ME!

“As of August 2009, up to 127 countries recognise the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name.”

United States of America (NATO and G8 member)
United Kingdom (EU, NATO and G8 member)
People’s Republic of China
Russia (G8 member)
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Croatia (NATO member)
Kosovo
Montenegro
Serbia
Slovenia
Albania (NATO member)
Bulgaria (EU and NATO member)
Andorra
Argentina
Austria (EU member)
Azerbaijan
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Belarus
Botswana
Brazil
Burundi
Cambodia
Canada (NATO and G8 member)
Chad
Chile
Costa Rica
Cuba
Czech Republic (EU and NATO member)
Djibouti
East Timor
El Salvador
Estonia (EU and NATO member)
Guatemala
Guinea
Haiti
Honduras
Hungary (EU and NATO member)
India
Iran
Iraq
Ireland (EU member)
Israel
Jamaica
Kuwait
Laos
Lithuania (EU and NATO member)
Malaysia
Mauritius
Moldova
Morocco
Mozambique
Myanmar (Burma)
Nepal
Nicaragua
North Korea
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Poland (EU and NATO member)
Paraguay
Qatar
Romania (EU and NATO member)
Rwanda
Saudi Arabia
Seychelles
Singapore
Slovakia (EU and NATO member)
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Suriname
Swaziland
Sweden (EU member)
Tanzania
Tajikistan
Thailand
Turkey (NATO member)
Turkmenistan
Uganda
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
Vietnam

Thank you to the above countries who respect our human rights and history.

And some people should go back to school and take some lessons of italian, since they are “TICCINESSE”..ahahaahah
Not bad for someone that claims to be fluent in 6 lenguages and give lectures of every subject to everyone!

LudaMara states…

“while we became “slavs” (which is purely linguistic term invented by the western ignorant scholars”

This implicitly suggests that LudaMara doesn’t see him/herself as Slavic? (I.e. denying his/her own Slavic heritage)

———-
Blonides writes

“and to be a slav only means that you are speaking a type of language and not your genes:

Implicitely suggesting Blonides doesn’t see herself of Slavic either (I.e. denying his/her own Slavic heritage)

———-
Val writes:

I AM MACEDONIAN, & I’m of slav origin and proud of it.

Implicitly suggesting Vals see’s him/herself as Slavic. (but “Macedonian” in an ancient or modern context)

———-

Pasko Kuzman )the current head of FYROM government’s archeology/cultural department) states…

“Macedonia can only defend its name, if it proves that the Macedonian nation has Classical Antique and not Slavic roots,”

Suggesting Pasko doesn’t see himself as Slavic and he’s a pure ancient Macedonian.
http://fellowship.birn.eu.com/en/main/alumni_articles/23131/
———-

Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President, stated
“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

This suggests he is not ancient Macedonian and Macedonian only in the Slavic sense.

———-
Krste Misirkov, a FYROM national icon, wrote in ‘On Macedonian Matters

“We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[...]‘And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called BULGARIANS?”

This suggests he see’s himself as an ethnic Bulgarian trying to form a “new” Macedonian state (no suggested connection to ancient Macedonians)
———-

Former FYROM Foreign Minister Denko Maleski stated…

“The idea that Alexander the Great belongs to us was at the mind of some outsider groups only. These groups were insignificant in the first years of our independence. But the big problem is that the old Balkan nations have been learned to legitimize themselves through their history. In the Balkans to be recognized as a nation you need to have history of 2,000 to 3,000 years old. Since you (Greece ) forced us to invent a history, we did invent it.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlDLmufGHqQ&feature=related

This implies nothing about his identity but states outright their government is intentionally committing fraud.

———-

Gyordan Veselinov FYROM’s former ambassador to Canada writes “We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.:

This suggests he acknowledges Greeks and himself as Slavic (the most cogent reply because FYROM are mostly a mix of former self-identifying Serbs and Bulgarians)

———-

Slobodan Ugrinovski, a FYROM politician stated on A1 TV, FYROM May 04 2009….

“We are not stating by accident that Josip Broz Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia, a father and a mother for Macedonia. Because we have, in that time, after NOB, for the first time created a Macedonian alphabet, a Macedonian television, a Macedonian state, a language, a passport, an identity card, a university for the first time, a Macedonian academy for the first time. We, communists, have created the Macedonian Orthodox church.”

This suggests he DOESN”T see himself as “Macedonian” (sees it as an artificially constructed identity)

———-

Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM stated…

“To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[...] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[...] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[...]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[...]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[...]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[...]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[...] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ”
http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI

Suggesting he knows the FYROM nationalists are extremely confused and that they need to form a distinct different identity. (which would be my advice to end this insanity before it escalates in war)

———-

I have to wonder if Mr.Einarsson’s film covered these sorts of massively conflicting identity narratives before he decided to seemingly crucify Greeks as oppressors? My guess is not.

It seems to be a pattern lately among people that claim to support FYROM’s “human right to self-identification” yet those same people seemingly show little or no interest whatsoever to make sure Greece’s human rights are also protected while FYROM works out its problems.

The source where the FYROMacedonia story comes from is actually a source in Iceland, according to one of the FYROMacedonian news channels that covered the story: the Icelandic newspaper “MBL”.

The Iceland Ambassador to the US said that it was their decision to not show the film, when they realised the content. The Embassy staff thought Einarson planned to promote through the film the Icelandic culture but when they watched the film they understood it had nothing to do with Iceland – besides it was clear that someone was trying to push FYROM’s political agenda. Thus they decided NOT to permit showing the film. FYROMacedonians in order to cover their failure, made up a story involving Greek diplomats. This claim, like much else coming out of FYROM, is just another fairy tale.

“the DNA analisis tell everything “dear greeks”.
the genetic is AN EXACT SCIENCE and they can PRECISELY tell you where you originate from.
why don’t you “pure greeks” that polute the net go and check your DNA. i dare you!”

I keep hearing the same gibberish “pure” negative stereotype of this thread (also repeated ad infinium by FYROM nationalists in the mass media).

Atanas are you so consumed by your hatred of Greeks that you sincerely believe that the vast majority of Greeks don’t realize they’ve had genetic outputs from other groups over the last 2500 years? So you go around trying to imply to ethnic Jews they aren’t ethnic Jews any longer because they mixed far far more than Greeks? (seeing as they were mostly nomadic right?)

But let me play with your sick attempt to undermine Greek ethnicity on DNA grounds. It is my understanding (although I’m not a geneticist to claim I understand the results) virtually all DNA studies conducted on modern Greek DNA (compared to ancient Greeks) seems to suggest a significant portion of the Greeks indeed genetically related to ancient Greek populations (see Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, and Alberto Piazza.). About the only exception being one highly controversial study that FYROM nationalists repeatedly claim prove Greeks are related to Ethiopians. (with has been widely discredited by 3rd party geneticists because it only used one genetic marker…but that didn’t seem to stop FYROM from putting it in their Manu encyclopedia)

AD Smith Professor Emeritus of Nationalism and Ethnicity at the London School of Economics has studied Greek culture and genetics extensively. He seems convinced of Greeks relationship to ancient Greeks. He writes in his book “National Identity”…

“the challenge for scholars is to represent more accurately and convincingly the relationship of ethnic, cultural (Greek) past to modern (Greek) nation
e challenge for scholars is to represent more accurately and convincingly the relationship of ethnic, cultural (Greek) past to modern (Greek) nation”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_D._Smith

That said, Mr. Smith is looking at other things too because using DNA alone to prove the status of one’s ethnicity over 2500 years is an immensely flawed argument. DNA says nothing about one’s culture, language, and identity. In addition just because someone may or may not personally share a few strands of DNA with a few ancient Greek cadavers-what does that prove?

My strands were probably far closer to Ephialtes rather that a far rarer genius Aristotle. Or maybe most of my DNA is Slavic because one person in my linage married someone Bulgarian. Or perhaps the opposite is true, and my DNA has strong Turkish elements and I just happen to have had one ancestor that was ancient Greek (among literally thousands of ancestors seeing as it’s 2^100 generations which means everyone’s married plenty distant cousins)

If anything its FYROM that has been wildly abusing DNA as some sort of “proof” that the Greek ethnic identity doesn’t exist simply because Greeks (like everyone else on earth) have received genetic inputs from elsewhere too. Using such an absurd extreme standard of ethnicity as “purity” would implicitly mean no ethnic groups on earth exists (or have ever existed).

Thus this childish “purity” argument is essentially a carefully crafted statement intended solely to ridicule Greeks. It is effectively meaningless in substance. Diana Muir & Paul S. Appelbaum write in the Gene Wars about FYROM’s approach to DNA….

“.. we can now turn to the use-or misuse-of genetic findings in the battle of territorial claims. The Macedonians, the Sami of northern Scandinavia, and Palestinians are three groups that have seized upon deeply problematic interpretations of new genetic evidence to bolster claims to sovereignty.[..] Most of today’s Macedonians are in fact citizens of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, carved out of the remains of Yugoslavia in 1991[..}They speak a Slavic language, part of a family of tongues brought to the Balkans by Slavic tribes in the sixth and seventh centuries, and first began to develop a unique national identity at the turn of the twentieth century. Nonetheless, [..] some of these citizens believe that they are in fact the descendants of Alexander the Great of Macedon, and as such “are not Slavs, but have a direct descent from the ancient Macedonians. ” (Diana Muir & Paul S. Appelbaum: The Gene Wars)
http://www.spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=1726

Niels, this is the exact sort of hateful abusive harassment Greeks have to deal with non-stop by hundreds of thousands of FYROM nationals (because they wish Greeks to abdicate their ethnic identity so that the former Bulgarians of FYROM can become the one true “ancient Macedonians”)

Some seem to believe the current name dispute is the dirty ignorant Greeks fault. The persecuted gets labeled the persecutor. How I know that they are full of horse manure is because of two factors.

a. Seeing as ancient Macedonians were self-identifying Greeks… are they saying FYROM nationalists are the “true” ancient Greeks now? (bizzarely erasing Greek-speakers from being Greeks and replacing them with former self-identifying Bulgarians that speak a south Slavic dialect?)

b. Why does everyone keep talking about protecting FYROM’s ethnic identity as if Greeks don’t exist? Don’t the human rights of Greeks count too? Doesn’t the Greek ethnic identity count too?

c. Why have so many people seemingly developed selective amnesia about what FYROM government officials (and national icons) used to claim not so long ago about their very own ethnicity.

‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov – Interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
(FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives iin Washington, – January 22 1999)

“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President – Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

‘I have received all letters which were sent by or through you. May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when WE OURSELVES ARE BULGARIANS…’
(Gotse Delchev, IMRO leader, in letter to Nikola Maleshevski – Sofia, 1 May 1899,)

“We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[...]‘And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called BULGARIANS?
http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

Jewish people get a disproportionate amount of flack for having a disproportionate amount of money. But when it comes to matters of history, it is Greeks that get constantly harassed by ethnically insecure SOBs that are obsessed with proving Greeks aren’t related to ancient Greeks (the Aryans claimed to be the “true” Greeks too at one point). FYROM claims we deny their identity because we won’t recognize the name. From my end it is they that deny ours in everything but name.

Everyone is ancient Greek… except the people that actually speak Greece, live in Greece, share DNA with ancient Greeks, cherish ancient Greeks, give Greek names to their cities and children. When doing so it is called disdainfully “hellenisation” or some sort of “cult”… as if cherishing Greek culture is some sort of horrible crime. Do people say this when someone treasures American culture, Icelandic, French, German, Japanese, Chinese, Korea, South African?

Ana mentioned hurtful but she doesn’t know hurt.

Is not Greece a member of NATO, EU etc. How will Macedonia invade and take “the GReek province of the same name” with its small insignificant army? Furthermore, will not Macedonian “irredentism” be held further in check if Macedonia is in Nato/EU? Just more of the unthought-out madness inherent in the GReek arguments!

Greeks have one argument, the argument of force, no other!!! All of their bandying of fyrom/slav this/that is over regurgiated swill, fed to them by their Greek nationalist govt. In a country where creative and personal freedom is DEAD, one need only to look at the Govt.s oppressive and fear based policies, the classic same of any occupier/overlord whose decrees are now LAW in their newly acquired lands!

TO START WITH. THERE IS NOT AN ETHNICAL GROUP YOU CAN CALL MACEDONIANS. AND THEN TRY TO APPLY YOU HAVE FOUND DIFFERENT DNA TRACES OF THAT GROUP IN DIFFERENT EUROPEAN COUNTRIES. YOU HAVE TOTALLY FORGOTTEN ARAB, PERSIAN AND ASIAN DNA IN BULGARIA. FOR THAT ONLY I SUPOSE THE CONSTRUCT YOU POST ON THIS PAGE IS A TOTAL FALACY. IT IS JUST NOT SCIENTIFICALLY SUSTAINABLE IN THE WAY IT IS EXPLAINED.

DNA SIMILARITIES DO NOT CONFORM NATIONALITIES OR CULTURAL HOMOGENIC HUMAN GROUPS. CULTURAL GROUPS AND NATIONS ARE CONFORMED BY A COMMON CULTURAL BACKGROUND, SPECIALLY BY THE USE OF A LANGUAGE.

THE PROBLEM POSTED HERE CANNOT BE ANSWERED FROM THE GENETIC POINT OF VIEW. BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A “NAME” LINKED TO A CULTURE AND NATIONALITY.

WE ARE NOT MAKING CLAIMS ON DEGREE OF PERCENTS OF PURITY IN SLAVIC OR NOT SLAVC. WE SEE THAT FYROM IS A CULTURAL UNITY THAT, FOR INSTANCE, IT IS GENERALLY AND OVERHEMLY SLAVIC.

THAT SOME DNA TRACES ARE TO BE FOUND IN BULGARIA, OR OTHER COUNTRIES DOES ONLY JUSTIFY THE PRESENCE OF GREEK POPULATION ( COLONIES ) IN THOSE AREAS YOU ARE MEANTIONING. COASTAL AREAS IN THE BLACK SEA, AND ALL ALONG THE MEDITERRANEAN. SAME “GREEK” DNA TRACES ARE TO BE FOUND ALL AROUND THE MEDITERRANEAN AND EVEN IN IN AFGHANISTAN AND INDIA.

THEY SAY THAT 20% OF FYRONIANS SHARE SOME COMON DNA WITH 18% GREEK MACEDONIANS. BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE FYRONIANS MACEDONIANS AND NOT THE GREEK TO BE FYRONIANS. SPANISH SHARE 35% OF COMMON DNA WITH 45% OF FRENCH POPULATION AND 20% WITH 30% OF ENGLISH POPULATION AND AND, SURPRINSINGLY 40% WITH 60% OF IRISH. ( THE CELTIC LEGACY)…

BUT I THINK IT IS OBVIOUS THAT SPAIN IS NOT THE RIGHT NOW TO CALL MADRID LIKE PARIS AND THAT SOUTH ENGLAND SHOULD BE NAMED NEW BARCELONA. SO LETS PUT THINGS IN ITS RIGHT PATH HERE WITH ALL THE STUFF OF THE DNA.. BECAUSE IT HAPPENS THAT WE SHARE 60% OF OUR DNA WITH CHINESE….

BUT I HAVE NEVER BEEN TO PEKIN.. WELL, MAYBE I SHOULD BE GRANTED CHINESE CITIZENSHIP FOR THAT…

THERE ARE DNA CHARACTERÍSITICS THAT ARE SHARED BY DIFFERENT HUMAN GROUPS. FOR EXAMPLE, DNA SO CALLED “BEREBER” TRACES WHERE FOUND IN 30% OF ENGLISH POPULATION. AND NOW YOU ARE GOING TO TELL ME THAT 30% OF ENLGLISH POPULATION ARE TOUAREG FROM THE SAHARA DESERT.

THERE ARE COMMON TRACES THAT PEOPLE SHARE AROUND THE WORLD. AND OTHER DNA CHARACTERÍSTICS ARE MORE COMMON OF DIFFERENT BETWEEN HUMAN GROUPS.

AS MAKEDONIANS FROM THE BEGINNING HAVE BEEN GREEK ( A GREEK ANCIENT TRIBE), THAT MIXED WITH THE OTHER GREEK TRIBES AND SPREADED GREEK CULTURE AROUND THE WORLD.